Post 2kF9UYWxxtr

Hjalmar Holm Apr 04, 2015 (17:35)

I've run into the reconstructed S word *fel- "to feel emotion. I have sometimes missed a word for such thing as "it fels like [this or that]". On the other hand I have heard of ways of expressing feelings like "my heart tells me ..." or "my heart is with you" or "it seems like ...( even ifmay not  be true)", and I'm sceptical and suspicious about that neologism. Specing of suspicion, how would you express "wary, cautious, suspicious, sceptical" in S?

Paul Strack Apr 04, 2015 (18:03)

Dipping into Gnomish again there is nafol “suspicious”, most likely from the early root NAVA.

Since V was not a phoneme used in Tolkien's later conception of Primitive Elvish, you would need to modify the root to either NAB- or NAW-. A root NAB- would produce forms like S navol.

Paul Strack Apr 04, 2015 (18:11)

Also, S fel- isn't completely outrageous. There is an attested root PHEL having to do with emotions which could have produced this Sindarin word:

Jenna Carpenter Apr 04, 2015 (20:53)

I created that for my dictionary, so if that's the source you're taking about you could have just asked me where it comes from! :-) (If not then hey we both had the same idea from the same source). I'll give you the origin later when I'm back on my PC and have the files to hand.

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Apr 05, 2015 (00:29)

For the various sentiments, Gnomish used impersonal expressions with individual verbs (e.g. luista nin "I am/*feel thirsty"), so maybe sentences like *defnada/demmada/níranna nin X "X grieves me, makes me (feel) sad" would be plausible or even to be expected in (Neo-)Sindarin.

Jenna Carpenter Apr 05, 2015 (10:20)

Right, origin for the reconstruction:
felmë from VT41:19 suggests a verb fel- 'to feel' which comes from, as +Paul Strack points out, from the root PHEL.

Hjalmar Holm Apr 05, 2015 (11:42)

+Jenna Carpenter Yes, it is your dictionary, I just now realized that. I downloaded it quite a while ago and on that site, there was no mentioning of any Carpenter as far as I can recall, but now I know! I'll rename the file Carpenter's dictionary, and so avoid future shortcomings.

Tamas Ferencz Apr 05, 2015 (19:55)

"On the other hand I have heard of ways of expressing feelings like "my heart tells me ..." or "my heart is with you" or "it seems like ...( even ifmay not  be true)", and I'm sceptical and suspicious about that neologism."
If you mean the guren bed enni etc. expressions, they're Tolkien's own

Hjalmar Holm Apr 05, 2015 (22:54)

It was fel- I was sceptical about, before I had the root PHEL shown to me. I wonder, do naf- and nafol have to undergo changes to be sindarinized?

Paul Strack Apr 06, 2015 (00:02)

+Hjalmar Holm If you accept the root NAB and posit primitive forms *nab- and *nablā, I think the only thing you need to do is revise the spelling to S nav- and S navol.

Hjalmar Holm Apr 06, 2015 (00:52)

Hjalmar Holm Apr 06, 2015 (12:56)

+Paul Strack Is navol the present tense participe of the verb nav-? Would it not in that case rather be expected as navel? Or nava- as the verb?

Paul Strack Apr 07, 2015 (04:21)

Well, G nafol might be an active participle, but then it would mean "suspecting" instead of "suspicious", which is not quite the same. I think S navol could simply be an independently derived adjective.

Fiona Jallings Apr 10, 2015 (22:12)

I've seen fel- used a lot over the years by a lot of different Neo-Sindarin and Neo-Quenya translators. Anyone know if there's an origin, or it's just something that a lot of people came to the same conclusion on?

I usually use Guren bêd enni for expressing one's conscience or feelings/intuitions that one has about a specific topic, and adjectives to express certain states of being, unless there's a verb that covers the meaning.

So, for "I feel angry" I'd usually translate it as "Ni rúthui" (I am angry) or "Ruthron" (I rage/am raging), but if I want to say, "I feel like I know you" I'd translate it "Guren bêd enni i len iston." (My heart tells me that I know you.)

Tamas Ferencz Apr 10, 2015 (22:59)

+Fiona Jallings yes, the noun felme "emotion" is attested in VT41

Fiona Jallings Apr 10, 2015 (23:58)

No, I mean who started using Fel- as a verb in Neo-Elvish translations? Who made the reconstruction? Or do we not know anymore?

Hjalmar Holm Apr 11, 2015 (08:26)

+Fiona Jallings You should perhaps talk to +Jenna Carpenter , see earlier in this thread.

Fiona Jallings Apr 11, 2015 (18:36)

She's talking about the -me suffix, a common nominalizer of verbs in Quenya. I'm curious because if we know the origin, then we could add it to our Neo-Elvish dictionary. I like citing sources. :)

Jenna Carpenter Apr 12, 2015 (14:11)

I think I saw the roots and thought 'that makes sense that's probably the verb' (or at least a decent idea of one), so it's in my lists because I came up with that, but I imagine it's one several people saw and thought the same thing about so I certainly wouldn't claim to have invented it or anything, and fairly sure I've seen it used by other people too.

Tamas Ferencz Apr 12, 2015 (14:53)

"felmë noun "impulse, emotion" (VT41:19; this suggests a verb +#fel- "to feel"). Compounded in fëafelmë, hroafelmë"
This has been in Helge's wordlist for a long time, certainly for years now

Jenna Carpenter Apr 12, 2015 (15:31)

Well that's Quenya not Sindarin but aye, exactly