Post 3mYvdAEq1G5

Damien Bador Jun 14, 2018 (21:23)

I have started translating the Book of Psalms into Quenya, and more specifically Parmaquesta. As I don't read Hebrew, unfortunately, I checked a number of versions, both French and English. My main source is the Bible Chouraqui, a very litteral Jewish translation, supplemented by several more literary translations, especially for the passages that are too idiomatic.

As an example, you'll find below the current version of my translation of Psalm 1, with a word-by-word English back translation:

1. Mána quén yë lá χilya hrúaron oré, lá χauta úcarindo-tiessë, lá χamu yaiwo-χammanna.
Blessed somebody who not follow {the} wicked-[pl]’s advice, not stop {the} sinner-path-in, not sit-down {the} scornful-him-chair-to.

2. Mal fasta i Yahwëo axandë ar hlussa axanzyá aurë ar lómissë.
But {is} pleased the Yahve’s law-in and whisper law-his day and night-in.

3. (Nás) wai alda ana sírí alanwa, ya lúmezyassë yáva. Olassiezya lá quelë ; ilqua caritazya alë.
(He is) like {a} tree alongside river plant-ed, that time-his-in bear-fruit. Foliage-his not wither; all doing-his prosper.

4. Laumë hrúain, naltë wai siltina ya þúlë winta.
On-the-contrary {the} wicked-[pl]-for, are-they like chaff that wind scatter(s).

5. Sië hrúar lá oryuvar i Námiessë, ar lá úcarindor faimo-ocombessë.
Thus {the} wicked-[pl] not rise-will-[pl] the Judgment-in and not {the} sinners {the} just-assembly-in.

6. An Yahwë ista faimo-tié mal hrúa-tië wanya.
For Yahve know(s) {the} just-path but {the} wicked-path lost {is}.
No Summary

Damien Bador Jun 14, 2018 (21:32)

The translations I mostly relied on:
- La Bible Chouraqui
- La Bible de Jérusalem
- The King James Bible
- The New Revised Standard Version

Less often, I supplemented these readings with the Traduction Œcuménique de la Bible and by a few specialised articles concerning specific Psalms.

Ицхак Пензев Jun 14, 2018 (21:43)

I don't think it's a good idea to translate without knowing Hebrew. Also, for sake of uniformity, I'd rely mostly on the style we already have in Helge's NQNT.

Tamas Ferencz Jun 15, 2018 (00:38)

It's there a need for uniformity?

Damien Bador Jun 15, 2018 (06:28)

+Ицхак Пензев As far as I know, Helge hasn't translated the New Testament straight from Greek, neither the few excerpts he did from the Old Testament from Hebrew. And I know Tamas does the same. Like me, he relies on intermediate translations. This is why I compare several translations and rely heavily on the most litteral one.

That said, I would definitely be interested in getting feedback from somebody who can read the original, because I don't think I'll get to learn Hebrew before I'm retired, which is far from now.

Regarding style, I deliberately chose Parmaquesta because Helge preferred Ñoldorin Tarquesta for his NT translation. I may not read the original books, but I know the style difference between OT and NT is significant. Besides, the Psalms are one of the earliest books of OT and their language is quite archaic even compared to the more recent OT books. Also, I intend to calligraphy these Psalms afterwards, and it is easier to start from Parmaquesta to avoid transcription mistakes such as confusing silmë and thúlë.

By the way, once the translation is complete, it will be quite easy for anybody to get a Tarquesta version from my translation, because the change rules are well-known. The reverse (from Tarquesta to Parmaquesta) is much more difficult, as I experienced.

Tamas Ferencz Jun 15, 2018 (09:23)

One side note: personally I find this kind of very word-by-word backtranslation more difficult to follow than straight English:)

Ицхак Пензев Jun 15, 2018 (09:25)

You have all rights to do whatever you want. I see a need for uniformity, but this is purely my subjective opinion.

Damien Bador Jun 15, 2018 (13:49)

+Tamas Ferencz Duly noted. I'll avoid that for the next one I post.

Tamas Ferencz Jun 15, 2018 (14:01)

+Damien Bador okay:) By the way, I have not even welcomed you to the community yet - very rude of me. So welcome! :) I hope you'll have a good time around here.

Damien Bador Jun 16, 2018 (14:53)

+Tamas Ferencz Thanks Tamas.

Damien Bador Jun 16, 2018 (14:55)

+Ицхак Пензев Your concern for uniformity is clearly a good one, and I understand your point of view.

Since it was a topic I thought about for some time prior to choosing Parmaquesta, I believed I should explain the reasoning behind my choice.

Damien Bador Jun 16, 2018 (15:40)

+Ицхак Пензев For that matter, though I believe that using different Quenya styles may reflect the various styles of the original texts, I definitely think that standardizing the neologisms would be useful.

As an example, I had to find a translation for “mule„ in Ps. 32, whereas this word isn't attested in Tolkien's writings, nor any cognate. We don't even get to have a word for “ass” (donkey), as far as I can tell. A friend of mine came up with perrocco for “mule„, which seems to me as good as we can get. However, I intend to check Helge's translations and see if he had already invented something for this animal (I don't think so, as the mule doesn't seem to appear in the New Testament).

Ицхак Пензев Jun 19, 2018 (20:19)

Helge has pellopo for "donkey/ass"

Damien Bador Jun 20, 2018 (22:32)

I can see the trend here... It's funny, but unfortunate, as mule and ass can't be both “half-horse”, even with different derivations.

Thanks for checking, in any case. This stresses the usefulness of a discussion with Helge. Unfortunately, I haven't got an answer from him yet.

James Coish Jun 23, 2018 (08:16)

I think perrocco mule is the more horse-like, so I would use it. pellopo donkey can be like any horse-like animal IMHO.

James Coish Jun 23, 2018 (08:19)

BTW thank you +Paul Strack for the tip on italicizing.

Paul Strack Jun 23, 2018 (14:12)

+James Coish I agree with you on perrocco being better, since pellopo could be “half rabbit” now, given the newly attested lopo “rabbit” (PE21/31).

Tamas Ferencz Jun 26, 2018 (14:14)

I think this is another case (especially for ass, donkey) where either a loanword or a new kenning is the solution. Something like *sindihelma, or something more metaphorical, if that feels too simplistic to you.

Damien Bador Jun 26, 2018 (18:18)

+Tamas Ferencz A loanword would probably be possible. Since the word "ass" is non-IE, it would be my natural choice. In such a case, I would preferentially take it from the Latin or Greek words.

Of course, a kenning could be possible too. The main issue I see with sindihelma is its unnatural length for such a usual animal. Besides, such a keening would have to be an old one, which means the h would appear as ks (metathesis of sk) in composition.

Hence, I would rather see something along the lines of sindiksel.

James Coish Jun 26, 2018 (18:25)

also...there are many lamnar sinde that could be confused.

Tamas Ferencz Jun 26, 2018 (20:05)

+James Coish not necessarily. There must be hundreds of bird species that are black but only one of them is called blackbird. It's a name, once people get used to it that this specific kind of animal is called that, it sticks

James Coish Jun 26, 2018 (20:06)


Tamas Ferencz Jun 26, 2018 (20:06)

+Damien Bador first I thought of *sindifara, but the early root behind EQ fara is probably obsolete

Damien Bador Aug 28, 2018 (11:42)

As of today, you'll find below the link toward the latest version of Ps. 1: - Quenya Psalmist Wordlist

Please notice that the above version is no longer up-to-date.