Post 4dXvybL21oH

Robert Reynolds Dec 23, 2016 (18:01)

This is another passage from my blended adaptation-summary of the Ainulindale and Genesis to practice with Quenya. I'm trying to use more non-English constructs to better learn. Feedback is very welcome!

Ainur *mimenner Eanna ar cenner i anes lusta. Enge rie erma nu cúma. Ainur carner minyave i eleni. I eleni ear or ilqua hyana Easse i menesse ya ná estaina Menel. Sisílanelte cále i cúmanna ar etta epeta i cúma úne cumna. Tá Ainur *ciltaner i vista i exa ermallo ar sa-panyaner nu Menel. Tá *ciltanelte i nén i lemyala ermallo ar carner i eari; ita lemyaina náne i parca nór. I men yasse ear i vista, i nén, i nór ná estaina Cemen.

The Ainur came into Creation and saw that it was empty. There was/existed only matter under a void. The Ainur made first the stars. The stars are/exist above all else in Creation in the place that is named the Firmament. They continually shined light into the void and therefore thereafter the void was not void. Then the Ainur separated the air from the other matter and placed it below the Firmament. Then they separated the water from the remaining matter and made the seas; that which remained was the dry land. The place in which are/exist the air, the water, and the land is named the Earth.

1) Ainur *mimenner Eanna "(lit.) (the) Ainur in-came to Ea" with the prefixed preposition to avoid possible interpretations as "the Ainur came toward Ea" while trying to still fully use the case system instead of just English-style Ainur menner mina/minna/mir Ea (by the way, are there pros/cons between these "into"s?)
2) lusta "empty" What I really want here is more like "barren, bleak"; is there a better choice?
3) minyave "first(ly)" I know that English "first" can be adjective or adverb; since I'm trying to describe the verbal action I want an adverb; is minyave the proper Quenya adverb or just minya?
4) ilqua hyana "all/everything other/else" I adapted this from a related phrase in Helge Fauskanger's Bible translation; I'm unsure of my grammar.
5) i cúma úne cumna "the void was not void" Is this an up-to-date way of negation? I've seen so many different ways of doing these things.
6) sa-panyaner "placed it" is this hyphen-fronting of the object pronoun the usual way of doing this?
7) i vista, i nén, i nór "the air (as a substance), the land, (and) the water" still trying to fully understand these lists based on I do not want a discontinuity between these three equal entries, yet explicit i vista ar i nén ar i nór seems verbose and would quickly become more unwieldy with more entries. What are my good options?

Hantan len!
Eldamo : Quenya : sanomë tarnë Olórin, Aracorno, Eomer, Imrahil, mi mísë, mi telepta yo morna, mi laiqua yo ninquë, mi luinë, ta Gimli mi lossëa
Q. sanomë tarnë Olórin, Aracorno, Eomer, Imrahil, mi mísë, mi telepta yo morna, mi laiqua yo ninquë, mi luinë, ta Gimli mi lossëa, “There stood Gandalf, Aragorn, Eomer and Imrahil in grey, in silver and black, in green and white, and in blue, and also Gimli in white”.

Tamas Ferencz Dec 24, 2016 (14:19)

For *mimenner:
- I don't think the use of the allative on its own would cause confusion, cf. et earello Endorenna utúlien
- mi is attested as a preposition but not as a prefix, which of course does not preclude its use as such; but the attested words minasurie "inquiry" lit. "search into" and mirroanwe "incarnate" suggest that mina and mir would be better choices for a prefix "into, inwards"
- there is an attested verb mitta- "to insert; to come in" which could suit your needs
- or just use tul- which implies a point of view from inside Arda

Tamas Ferencz Dec 26, 2016 (18:33)

I don't think there's anything wrong with lusta however, if you're looking for an alternative you might pick parne

Robert Reynolds Dec 26, 2016 (18:49)

+Tamas Ferencz Thanks! This insight, especially into prefixed propositions, helps: this usage feels new to me. Regarding 1), I decided to use mitta- with the object Ea in allative. For 2), I'll probably stay with lusta, as it feels more fitting here than parne, parna. I notice the common root with parca which I use later; these connections help a lot, too. I'm building my vocab!

Tamas Ferencz Dec 26, 2016 (18:56)

+Robert Reynolds I'm happy you find these comments useful!

minyave: I think that's fine; or at least, the only alternative I can think of until we get an attested from is *minya lume

ilqua hyana: or ilye hyane or ilqua exa etc.

úne: in the end Tolkien seemed to have decided that AL/LA was the proper root for negation, so that would be lane cumna

panyaner sa

I don't see anything wrong with an "A, B, C, and D" type list

Robert Reynolds Dec 26, 2016 (19:05)

+Tamas Ferencz​ I'm happy to get these comments and interaction. In particular, there are so many alternate approaches; I greatly appreciate having options, so I like knowing which alternates are superseded and which are (to our knowledge) Tolkien's final will. I'm implementing these updates already.

Robert Reynolds Dec 26, 2016 (19:09)

I also appreciate being able to talk about Tolkien languages with others: Quenya is so elegant and beautiful, yet I'm usually unable to share that experience with others. I'm more motivated when I feel part of a greater whole.

Tamas Ferencz Dec 26, 2016 (19:57)

Instead of *cilta- you might consider lanya- with an ablative: - Eldamo : Quenya : lanya-¹

Robert Reynolds Dec 26, 2016 (20:04)

+Tamas Ferencz Good idea. I saw that word when researching and interpreted it as, for instance, what a surveyor would do without connecting that with causing the boundary. Thinking about it more closely, it feels clear.