Post 5vPrZkcAfEA

Lőrinczi Gábor Dec 30, 2013 (14:13)

Here you can find the analysis of the Sindarin dialogues from the second Hobbit movie:

Right now it is quite incomplete, so suggestions and comments are welcome. ;)
Elendilion – Tolkienowski Serwis Informacyjny » Blog Archive » G-i-P Report: Complete Sindarin dialogs from The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug!
This time, because of a lot of uncertainty, I can provide only a quasi-complete analysis of the Sindarin dialogues from the movie. I marked in red those words I have no idea about and in blue those I am not sure of. (In both of these cases, there is a chance that the spelling is not correct.) ...

Tamas Ferencz Dec 30, 2013 (14:24)

Thank you, Gábor!

Tamas Ferencz Dec 31, 2013 (09:50)

I had been wondering how David had solved the comparative - I see now that he opted for *eb "before". Tolkien's concept in Quenya is the opposite, , "beyond"; but of course epe/apa both meant "after" at certain stages.

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Dec 31, 2013 (18:03)

Through the movie phenomenon one also learns other novelty factoids, like with this sentence on Orcrist :

"nagol e-lyg / onnen o goew ithluig"
(last word actually written just so according to a post in a Finnish forum)

Well... at least they were smart drakes?

Matt Dinse Dec 31, 2013 (23:14)

I don't understand goew, but ithluig is probably just i thluig (in and plural of lhûg), or Ith luig if it might be written like that. We picked apart these runes last year and tried to figure them out; interesting to see how off we were from onnen and goew, for whatever reason.

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Jan 01, 2014 (01:24)

My preliminary thought on *goew was to trace it to either GÁY(AS), GAS, GOS, or WÂY(Â) -- should the /s/ > /h/ disappear in due time, etc. (the transcribed Stop Mutation would exclude ÑGAW). Pitty that e.g. isn't as of yet able to include the full etymology of lhoew (though we know oew < CE *ok-mâ).

I certainly appreciate David for indirectly giving me a nudge with this one to once again enjoy some quality time with Brythonic etymologies and my online and offline Celtic sources... long enough to fill another useful paper slip that I hope won't be lost for at least a while! A few people here can probably relate to that.

Björn Fromén Jan 01, 2014 (17:38)

"?*eb: before (cf. Q epe) [though of time Q epe means "after"]"

As Patrick Wynne has pointed out, the probable meaning of N/S eb- is likewise 'after', when it's used of time.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 02, 2014 (08:49)

+Björn Fromén
 true. However, the metaphor Quenya employs to express comparison is spatial; it seems unlikely to me that N/S would use a temporal metaphor; and it does not really make sense to me either to use 'after'.

Björn Fromén Jan 04, 2014 (17:57)

+Tamas Ferencz
Evidently Tolkien wasn't always crystal clear on this matter, but generally words for 'before' in a spatial sense are said to mean 'after' when used of time. Thus Q epe means 'before' "in all relations but time" (VT 49:32) and can metaphorically be used in comparison as a synonym of . So the fact that N/S eb- means 'after, of time' doesn't contradict its possible use in a spatial metaphor, but obviously it can't simultaneously be taken to mean 'before, of time'!