I'll put up this thread to write down and not to forget the things of most peculiar interest I learned from +#PE22. (And I invite anyone to join!). Here is what I have extracted yet (maybe some of this was known before but never so explicit):
• We have an intensifying gradation of imperatives! Á carë! 'please do it' > Carë! 'do it!' > Cará! (with the final stress) 'DO! IT! NOW!'. I guess in avá carë 'don't do it' the stress is also to the second A;
• The theory that the Eldarin questions are in form the same as statements but can employ a marker ma is confirmed; even more, we get a strict word-order syntax of int use, with this particle always preceding the subject immediately. This means, in Mana i•coimas Eldaron? the first word cannot be a ma-na cluster for this would put na between ma and the subject; I guess mana is actually a pronoun 'what'; I'd even suggest that the initial distinction is mana 'what' vs. mano animate 'who' which in Tarquesta coincide in man;
• We get the 'isn't it?'-questions syntax!
• The CE information on matubāni does not (except derivation) contradict LVS14 at all! The given data concern Old Sindarin only; if ese forms were replaced in the 'classical' language by analytical devices, it is a normal development route. We might even suggest that the reason for the -ubā abandonment was exactly its employment in Quenya; I actually imagine King Thingol prohibiting to 'mimic the Golodhren way of expression and the detestable uba-ing in favour of a nobler toled'.
And what was the most enlightening fact from PE22 for you?
Tamas Ferencz Jul 26, 2015 (19:13)
Tamas Ferencz Jul 26, 2015 (19:16)
Paul Strack Jul 26, 2015 (19:18)
Александр Запрягаев Jul 26, 2015 (19:32)
The intonation possibility for yes/no questions is actually claimed in the same LVS text, as I understand.
+Paul Strack I agree the first part is also very exciting; I've glanced through it only fragmentarily but got some wonderful insight into Etymological Noldorin. It seems that Tolkien effortlessly wove lots of historical phonology into the discussions.
And I forgot the On Ælfwine's spelling text! Ælfwine was acquainted with Irish (and Old Saxon)! And Tolkien suddenly accepts that his word-final Sindarin -f for [v] is his own predilection, not even Ælfwine's!
Александр Запрягаев Jul 27, 2015 (18:26)
• Suddenly: the stem HAN is actually 'to give'! Then our musings about anna/hanna in Sindarin are suddenly resolved with both meanings coinciding! (163) This way, Eruhantalë should be explained from SKAN (more probable from Telerin view-point)/KHAN, which restore Le hanthon as a possible way of thanking!
• Is it the first ever time we are explicitly informed about the existence of KOL base 'to carry' with descriptions and examples? (155: koloite (KOL referring to the ability to support weight or a burden, physical or mental, not necessarily to transporting it), capable of bearing, tolerant (of), enduring (koloitie, endurance, staunchness, fortitude))
Paul Strack Jul 27, 2015 (18:44)
Александр Запрягаев Jul 28, 2015 (11:07)
• Tolkien in the latest bunch uses lne > lde quite systematically; tulde pa. t. of tul, aln > ald in 'old negative compounds' (153); I believe it was thought that past tenses of L-verbs are formed with lle instead. Was it supported by any specific forms?
• Why in LVS Tolkien goes for kuita (< KUY-t(a)) as 'to live'; kuima 'living being'? Is 'to wake' abandoned at all or are they both now somehow mixed in the same stem?
• The most devastating thing for me was Tolkien's actual belief that yā is a causative marker from non-verbal stems! Watching him oscillating between orya and orta from OR and trying to determine which is 'rise' and which 'raise' actually hurts us wanting a final result! It seems that finally Tolkien proclaims yā to be an intransitive unbreakable marker, and oryane, ahyane etc. with no 'n' intrusion possible (157).
• In final years Tolkien does the same as the earlier: making as much forms out of Quenya as possible, 'Esperantizing' it! It is possible to join past -ne to a continuous stem — behold past continuous! 'Future active participles' such as hostainiéva are restored like karuvaila (155)! (Does any current living language have future participles?)
Tamas Ferencz Jul 28, 2015 (11:29)
Александр Запрягаев Jul 29, 2015 (18:52)
• On 130, in the description of how a reduplication works, mammata 'to gobble up' must be a slip for a correct mamatta for it does not fit the described and many more times exemplified scheme. It seems to descend out of a copying from 95 where it appears first.
• 163: S. 'strong verb' aned is both previously unattested (in PE17, Tolkien preferred antha as the underlying form instead) and demonstrates specifically that -i/o infinitives do not exist in mature Sindarin and are switched to ed formatives.
• 155: 'When formed from intransitive stems as kalima 'luminous' they differed from the verbal participles in -ila (a) as being more intensive, (b) as being always aorist[?] and without special reference to a present or particular occasion'; does that explain the material-name silima?
• 152: Tolkien gives koine as pa. t. of (pres.) KOYO: why such oscillations between KOY and KUY in the same period? Did he reassing KOY to 'wake' now?
• 167 and elsew.: In LVS, we get beside the examples of short T. pronominal endings (these are: hanin, carin) our first expanded form: athane 'I help, assist, support > I agree'. Now we know that Telerin gets the ne typed inflexions instead of nie typed ones and that must be a feature of all the T. branch. In fact, adding the continuous knowledge, we can for sure render the conjugational patterns of Amanian Telerin as following: carin 'I do', cacāran 'I'm doing', carnen 'I did', acārien 'I've done', carrōn 'I shall do'. (But such in CE; the LVS seem to imply however that Telerin has only one present — aoristal — and possess the power to make the continuous form as in Quenya but either to express the future 'as is' or to make an analytic form with a fixed verb cāran as a copula. Furthermore, I found no details on the actual past distribution of Telerin and its possession of 'perfect').
• 151: And a question that troubles me deeply: if, as in CE, the common ways to make the past were the augmentation emēnie and the n-suffixation menne, how come Sindarin in (e)mēne > evín and Quenya in mēne > ménë get the same construction of a past tense by vowel lengthening and suffixation of e — with no 'n' consonant used at all? Does that imply that such a formation could be of more ancient devising? Tolkien seems to incorporate the new past tense to Sindarin of the 50s exactly from Quenya and even toys in LVS with the idea to eliminate the n-infixion beside T, P, C at all — which corresponds to the thing done in Sindarin where there in no N except before stops!
Matt Dinse Aug 05, 2015 (05:51)
Regarding the past tense of basic L- verbs, the 1940s version is full of ll, though it says that ld also appears. Examples are given of both (p. 103), incl. tulle. In LVS, that's tulde throughout, and we see kolde and kōle on p. 152.
I would assume that he once again flipped "wake" back to KOY.
p. 130 says that mammata is an example of Quenya and Sindarin verbs formed from lengthening of one of the base consonants (but not as part of regular conjugation), but that in Quenya there was a "repetitive" form frequent enough to almost be considered part of "the system of normal basic verbs". That form was the one in which it was always the second base consonant, and for which tutulla is given. This is the same in his previous stage (p. 95)
As for evín, PE17:93 says that it's a pa.t. blend emēnē from Q. menta's pa.t. mennē and perf. emēnie.
I wouldn't take the mentions in the different conceptions in PE22 to cover all forms throughout LotR-era and later. Indeed, not all the forms we already have can be explained under these conflicting conjugations (e.g. stuff like PE17:77), and JRR even fluctuated throughout the different LVS!
For the pa.t., 131 (CEVS) mentions CommEld nasalized aorist, usually w/ augment: manti, amanti, or nē suffixed to base: mbarnē, ambarnē. Quenya in particular had unaugmented pa.t. with nasal infixion, nē suffixion, or occasionally lengthening of sundóma: and indeed we see tūle on 140. It questions whether the perfect was "completely differentiated from the next (Past) in Common Eldarin, or whether there were simply two similar competing methods of forming a 'past tense.'"
Александр Запрягаев Aug 05, 2015 (08:01)
That is the thing I cannot understand in PE17 even: how a 'blending' of a ne suffixed form and an ije suffixed form creates a result with just e?
Additions:
• Actually, for my former thought there is nothing to point to a Telerin perfect tense, I found an exact quotation, in QE:367: Thus we have prefix au-, adverb au or avad; verb auta- with past participle vanua, and associated past and perfect vane and avanie; and in physical senses vante, avantie. So they are the same and similarly distributed.
• I'm questioning the sequence of the LVS chosen by the editors. Is actually 14, actively employing Erulingar is actually after 11 which rejects it violently?
Александр Запрягаев Aug 08, 2015 (15:48)
• The variety of proposed participles (for Quenya). Though the particular forms do change, the patters in still quite the same in LVS. The most enlightening is the 'perfective' forms of the type carnelya (QVS)/cáriela (LVS) which is obviously the basis and cognate for (wider used) córiel perfective participles in Sindarin!
• Tolkien's obsession with combinatorics. His epic calculation of the number of possible verbal forms derived from car is epic — and flawless in computation. Comp. his charts of the Eldar/Avari clan percentage in QE — we've lost a good statistician?
Tamas Ferencz Aug 08, 2015 (18:48)
Tamas Ferencz Aug 08, 2015 (19:04)
Александр Запрягаев Aug 08, 2015 (19:07)
Tamas Ferencz Aug 08, 2015 (19:23)
Александр Запрягаев Aug 08, 2015 (19:56)
Александр Запрягаев Aug 09, 2015 (09:51)
Tamas Ferencz Aug 09, 2015 (09:55)
Александр Запрягаев Aug 09, 2015 (10:25)
Tamas Ferencz Aug 10, 2015 (08:59)
I don't understand PUL either, unless he had a shade different meaning in mind, or he just forgot. See the LVS where he say that he has not devised any root to date to cover 'can, may', obviously forgetting his POL/LER/ISIT trio from earlier.
Also, just a few years ago we had to resort to ugly hacks when we wanted to say 'I have/possess' now we have two verbs to choose from!
Александр Запрягаев Aug 10, 2015 (11:17)
My idea is that the meanings are somehow distinct: UL is 'to pour' and PUL 'to fill up (as with liquid)'. The appearance of the former in LVS14 is quite persuasive to search for a semantic disparity.
Tamas Ferencz Aug 10, 2015 (11:59)
to gloss PUL as 'fill up' for me contradicts the gloss 'liquid' of púlima (which I interpret as 'pourable' hence liquid). But perhaps at that particular point of time Tolkien thought UL as intransitive, wnd PUL as the transitive variant?
I confess: i don't like harya, I never did.
Александр Запрягаев Sep 07, 2015 (20:06)
• At least, when he first conceived the idea (68), the 'Latin-style peculiarities' of Noldorin/Sindarin non-Tengwar spelling (word-final f for [v], usage of d to express [dh] etc.) are actually a feature of later Tol-Eressëan pronunciation — heard by Ælfwine like that and hence the same written. I think this concept can still be salvaged… Actually, that's a bomb.
• Already in (51), the Eldar are ambidextrous! How can he write about Maedhros learning to use his left hand at the same time?!
• Judging by golodh - i•'olodh (34) and dor - i•dhor (33), there was no concept of a separate pre-nasalized mutation in the Noldorin contemporaneous to the Etymologies! Also, note 103 on the same page shows Tolkien already in Noldorin thought there is no lenition of genitive phrases — however he failed to follow that in actual writing, as proved by the texts (see 41) and the Moria gate, where he needed some years to notice the fact in revision!
Tamas Ferencz Sep 07, 2015 (20:52)
Александр Запрягаев Sep 07, 2015 (21:27)
Paul Strack Sep 07, 2015 (21:55)
I will admit, though, that I could only find one example of a special soft-mutation for a nasal-strengthened stop in my notes from the 1930s:
http://eldamo.org/content/words/word-1076234755.html
Interesting point about the ambidexterity, though. This means he must have come up with the idea in the 1930s, probably as he was working on the Elvish compass. Left-handedness was connected with clumsiness in QL from the 1910s, so ambidexterity probably wasn't part of Tolkien’s original conception:
http://eldamo.org/content/words/word-2049611269.html
There is even a connection between "left" and "sinister" in an early entry the Etymologies, though I am guessing Tolkien abandoned the idea:
http://eldamo.org/content/words/word-944482569.html
Александр Запрягаев Sep 07, 2015 (21:59)
The most peculiar thing in all the ambidexterity business is the (transient) fact that it was right which is 'sinister' in the mind! I wonder if he considered making Elves predominantly left-handed at the time?
Paul Strack Sep 07, 2015 (22:11)
Fortunately we know there is an unpublished Noldorin grammar from this time period, and it is likely that it will answer questions like these.