Post 79vXsWwBdno

Tamas Ferencz Mar 08, 2018 (11:32)

What would, in your opinion, be the present perfect of the verb derived from SKEY 'pass' (whether it's *xíta or *xéya is probably irrelevant in this case)? *eskéye?

Александр Запрягаев Mar 08, 2018 (11:53)

eskeinie. PE22:103 per ending (where okoine is prob. for *okoinie).
Start per ibid.:112. TQ exeinie.
eskéye not excluded, also eskeitie if xíta, not xéya.

Tamas Ferencz Mar 08, 2018 (12:30)

+Александр Запрягаев hm, why not *eskítie, *eskínie, wouldn't having a stress on the syllable push it towards de-diphtongisation (if that's a word:)?

James Coish Mar 08, 2018 (23:01)

√SKEY xíta- to pass > √KEY cíta- to suppose?

Tamas Ferencz Mar 08, 2018 (23:11)

+James Coish you mean that as an analogy? Yes, that may be, unless one wants to distinguish that to pass is intransitive and suppose is transitive. But I guess that may be going too far.
But the question for me wasn't really the aorist (I can accept either of them as valid) but the shape of the perfect.

James Coish Mar 08, 2018 (23:14)

+Tamas Ferencz I mean that perhaps xíta- might follow the same pattern as cíta-. Maybe I used the ">" incorrectly. :)

Tamas Ferencz Mar 08, 2018 (23:27)

+James Coish perhaps, but it does not help with the perfect ☺️

Paul Strack Mar 09, 2018 (02:38)

+Александр Запрягаев I agree with you, except that in later Quenya sk usually metathesized to ks even medially: - Eldamo : Quenya : [sp], [sk] metathesized to [ps], [sk]

Medial sk is more common that ks. So I would use exeinie or exeitie

Tamas Ferencz Mar 09, 2018 (09:34)

Right. So to piggyback on +James Coish 's idea, is the prefect of kíta then ekeitie?

Paul Strack Mar 09, 2018 (15:13)

Erg. It seems that ei is not a normal diphthong in Quenya, and usually ei became í, as in níta < neitā. Thus the perfects should be exínie or exítie, or possibly reformed to ixínie or ixítie.

Paul Strack Mar 09, 2018 (15:35)

Hmm. I checked PE19/106, and there the rule is that ei became ē in stressed monosyllables and stressed non-final syllables, but otherwise becomes ī. Apparently this change was after the Quenya stressed shifted. So I’m not sure why the attested form is cíta- and not céta-. Apparently Tolkien didn’t quite make up his mind on the development of ei in Quenya.