Post 7X2jcbdx46q

Tamas Ferencz Aug 25, 2014 (11:48)

Over on the blue social network Isaac has been looking for NQ words "sugar", "potty", "delicious/tasty", "to crawl". I am copying my proposals from there for further comments/discussion:

*lisserma 'sweet matter',
*lisselitse 'sweet sand';
*kaimasalpa 'bed-bowl' (cf. chamber pot);
*tyavinqua 'full of taste',
*alatyave 'well-tasted';
*lolóka- 'crawl' freq. of *lok- (LOK-, cf. Qenyaqetsa OLOK  LOKO-).
*kemme 'earthenware jar, pot' > 'pot', cf. kere 'earthenware jar' KERE- (QL)

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Aug 25, 2014 (19:00)

The first one made me wonder, can we tell how to form an instrument-name (noun) from an A-stem verb, should one exist for "sweeten"? (If not, then a possible way around that would be to take noun meaning "sweetness" and add an element like *tyarya [cf. matya] or antë).

N.B: Qenya Lexicon has the distinctive synonyms for "powder" mar (mard-) (#2) (ixt. marma, Qe "sand") and mul (muld-).

Etymology of the European word:
[The known verbs for "to grind" are Qe mul- and marda-.]

Tamas Ferencz Aug 25, 2014 (19:23)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ an instrument name - or an agent? For are agents necessarily animate? Could we have perhaps *lissetar for 'sweetener'?

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Aug 25, 2014 (20:04)

Tamas: I mused on whether it was possible to make a noun that would mean "sth. which is used to achieve/perform X-ing". (In Finnish -in[1] is used to form these; I don't know if Hungarian has a corresponding affix.)


Tamas Ferencz Aug 25, 2014 (20:16)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ we use the ó/ő present participle (and adjectival) ending for that purpose:
szór 'sprinkle' szóró 'sprinkling, sprinkler'
édes 'sweet' édesít 'sweeten' édesítő 'sweetener'

Roman Rausch Aug 26, 2014 (00:26)

Somehow any kind of descriptive compound sounds very artificial to me.. Sugar belongs to a group of commodities which spread along trade routes and whose names were loaned across languages rather than invented. If we have no evidence of sugar being present in Middle-earth (it doesn't appear in the LotR, that much I can say), perhaps a loan into Neo-Quenya might actually be best - *su(k)kar or something like that.

I find *tyavinqua better than *alatyave because of the confusion with the negative prefix (see alasaila). One might also use amya-, mai- *'excellent, admirable' from PE17:163, *maityave/*maityávea, *amyatyave/*amyatyávea. Or actually simply *tyávea.

I cannot find QL OLOK-..

We have N. cevnas 'earthenware' (VT45:19) -> Q. *kemnasse. It looks like a mass noun, but might be usable for a single jar as well.

Tamas Ferencz Aug 26, 2014 (01:18)

+Roman Rausch mea culpa, not OLOK, LOKO-!

Tamas Ferencz Aug 26, 2014 (01:20)

On FB Helge cited Qenya matsa 'delicious' as a possibility.

Ицхак Пензев Aug 26, 2014 (10:34)

A good discussion. I'm still thinking over all the proposals.
And yes, I find prefix mai- less ambiguous than ala-.

Tamas Ferencz Aug 26, 2014 (10:41)

+Ицхак Пензев
indeed it is less ambiguous. Probably the best recourse is to use the attested words that use ala- 'well' but consider the prefix as improductive.

Tamas Ferencz Sep 01, 2014 (23:47)

Note that PE21:12,13 gives Qenya tambe "pot, jar"

Ицхак Пензев Sep 02, 2014 (16:03)

Yes! Yes! Now I remember that I saw this word, and even put it into my notes, and totally forgotten where I wrote about it, and couldn't find it.