Post 7y3bueVyydG

Tamas Ferencz Jan 31, 2013 (10:51)

Airelinde 23

Héru mavarinya[1] ná: lá penin
Tyareryen Tyaris[2] i kaitan laique palarissen: tulyassen tenna sende neni
Feanyá asyas: tulyassen rá esserya anwéva tiessen
Yé, ménan ké tere qualmeo leo nando,
Ulkullo uan rúke, an asinye nalye; olwennelya yo vandilelya nye asyar.
karilye nin meren[3] opo kotumonyar; ulyal laivé karinyanna; yulmanya penquanta ná.
Sína márielya lisselyaye hilyuvatten vehtenyo illi aurissen; ar Hérunyo mardesse maruvan tennoio.

Link to KJV verson for reference:

[1] An early word, but mámandil looked too long; there is emerwen which may point to *emer?
[2] Causative is a headache: in several cases the verbal ending ta has causative meaning, but it's difficult to "apply" it in all cases; so should we use an auxiliary? If yes what? or? car-? tyar-?
[3] Didn't find a satisfactory solution for 'table', 'lay a table' etc.
Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 23 - King James Version
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his ...

Tamas Ferencz Feb 05, 2013 (14:39)

Re: palasar - the fact that it means 'stone table' is not necessarily a problem. E.g. in Hungarian a pen is still called toll 'feather' although no pen is made of bird feathers any more...

Björn Fromén Feb 05, 2013 (14:42)

[1] I see very little reason to object to mavar(do); it fits in very well with the patterns of late-source Quenya, and the base MAW(A)- could plausibly have appeared in The Etymologies. (Much more dubious is olwe(n), only attested in GL and obsoleted by olwa in Etym. and olba in still later sources.) emer- perhaps means *'herd', *'flock' (Emerie *'herd-region', emerwen *'herdswoman'?)
[2] The KJV doesn't use "lay", the causative of "lie", so tyar- 'cause' seems to be a good choice. But surely the reconstructed pronominal ending **- rye has proved apocryphal? I think I would write tyaris i caitan 'he causes [it to be] that I lie down'. Alternatively, this could be a place for lav - : the Jerusalem Bible has "In meadows of green grass he lets me lie".
[3] palasar, palasard- from QL would fit phonologically, but the ending  -sar suggests rather a slab of stone than a table for meals.

Tamas Ferencz Feb 05, 2013 (14:45)

Good point on **-rye; however, -sse is quite loaded, unfortunately. Granted, the locative ending would not appear in verbs, but still there are the reflexive and the simple 3rd person endings.

I mean of course when one needs the long ending; the short ending -s is absolutely fine.

Björn Fromén Feb 05, 2013 (17:53)

But a form like tulyassen seems to me unambiguous: the verb could hardly take both a reflexive and a non-reflexive direct object at the same time.

Tamas Ferencz Feb 05, 2013 (17:55)

Naite. At any rate, there's the -xe reflexive suffix, too.

Damien Bador Jun 14, 2018 (07:12)

+Tamas Ferencz As far as we know, there is no long ending for the 3rd person singular. The only alternate to -s would be the independent pronoun .

Damien Bador Jun 14, 2018 (07:16)

Regarding Emerwen (and Emerië), it seems most probable that these words designate something related to herds. And indeed, in English, a herdsman is a shepherd.

I personally chose the neologism Emerro for “shepherd”, because I believe emer is “herd”.

Tamas Ferencz Jun 14, 2018 (08:07)

+Damien Bador there is, actually two variants -sse and -se, attested in several places, see - Eldamo : Quenya : -s(ë)

Tamas Ferencz Jun 14, 2018 (08:08)

Í mean, the original post was posted 239 weeks ago, a lot has changed in the meantime:)

Damien Bador Jun 14, 2018 (21:09)

+Tamas Ferencz For sure. I intended my message to be positive criticism. :-)