Post 8oo3a3s4RMP

Paul Strack Feb 16, 2018 (03:10)

How do folks think initial primitive tl- and dl- developed in Sindarin?

In Gnomish, there are no initial tl-, and there are some of examples of cl-, such as G. clum EQ. telumbe “mushroom”, that point to tl > cl. In the Early Noldorin of the 1920s, however there are plenty of examples of tl-.

In the Noldorin of the 1930s, tl, dl > cl, gl as in eglenn, but in Sindarin at least the medial development was different, since eglenn >> edlenn.

Initially, though tl- and dl- do not feel very “Sindarin”. The initial combinations of gr, gl and dr are suppose to be “favored” but dl is not, which makes me believe dl- > gl- initially, and probably also tl- > cl-

The reason I am asking is because I am interested in using some of the Gnomish and Early Noldorin word beginning with tl- and cl-, most especially clum, and I am trying to figure out how to adapt them.

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Feb 16, 2018 (11:44)

Initial /cl-/ and /tl-/ are both found in a number of Welsh words. /Dl-/ appears only as a result of the Soft Mutation.

Lokyt L. Feb 16, 2018 (12:45)

As you said, there is no "tl-" in Gnomish (I won't speak about Early Noldorin, as my knowledge of it is next to none), so no problem here :)

As for "cl-", its adaptation to Sindarin is part of a larger question of how Tolkien later changed Gnomish words on "c-" (and "cr-", "cl-", "cw-") generally. Which in turn is part of the overall question of how Tolkien later treated his Gnomish creation (that is - those parts of it he didn't simply reject) in total.
So far it looks to me as though there isn't any universal approach. Yes, sometimes he liked one or more of the "modern" words, so he preserved them and just adapted their phonological structure and etymology (including creation of a brand new root, if needed). But in other cases he preserved the "ancient" root (or most of it) and created brand new derivations from it. Etc. etc.
So I don't think this can be just about finding some straightforward pattern like "this Gnomish consonant cluster will be this Sindarin consonant cluster and that's it".

Paul Strack Feb 16, 2018 (16:21)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ That’s interesting. If tl- remains in Welsh but not dl-, that hints that dl- > gl- might be the only change. There don’t appear to be any clear examples of primitive dl-, however, so this remains a hypothetical case.

+Lokyt L. I agree that it’s not just a case of simple substitution of consonants. Obviously if Gnomish cl- came from primitive kl- it would remain cl-. I am trying to decide if Gnomish clum should remain or become tlum.

Ekin Gören Feb 16, 2018 (17:26)

+Paul Strack Why not *telum?

Lokyt L. Feb 16, 2018 (17:42)

+Ekin Gören My thinking as well.

+Paul Strack I believe you're not asking the right question here (at least in the particular case of "clum").

Gn. "clum" comes from early primitive √TEL, a root that "survived" to the middle and late periods more or less intact. But can any kind of "clum" or "tlum" be derived from it in N./S.?
Doesn't the "u" in "clum" come from Gn. vocalisation of primitive syllabic "l"? Beause if it does, it probably can't exist in Sindarin at all...
And if it doesn't, then what kind of process removed "e" from primitive "*telu-" (if I reconstruct ancient form of Gn. "clu-" in this case correctly). Does this process still exist in middle/late N./S.? And what about the "u" now, can that still be there at all?
Also this derivative suffix "-mbī" > "-mmi" > "-m" (?): does this one have a middle/late N./S. "descendant"? If so, which one is that? If not, what N./S. suffix can we use as a substitute?
These are the questions I would ask :)

Paul Strack Feb 16, 2018 (18:36)

+Lokyt L. My theory is that G. clum < t’lumbe < telumbi where the e in the initial syllable was lost because it was unstressed and because the result was a “favored
initial syllable”.

+Ekin Gören I suppose I could use *telum, but when adapting early words I prefer to stick as close to the original form as I can, ideally use the exact same form if possible.

But tlum/clum may be too much of a stretch. The Sindarin syncope I described above only occurs when there are two vowels of the same quality, so tala... > tla... is possible (as in tlaud) but maybe not telu... > tlu...

Lokyt L. Feb 16, 2018 (18:58)

+Paul Strack Well, intriguing as the topic is, I can neither confirm nor falsify your theory. But if you're right, then I agree that "telu-" > "tlu-" is rather impossible in Sindarin.

As for sticking to the original form, I think it's a question whether one does that better by preserving the exact string of phonemes or rather by preserving the ideas behind that string. I believe the latter is closer to Tolkien's methods.

Paul Strack Feb 16, 2018 (20:38)

+Lokyt L. I agree that consistency with later forms and constructions is essential when adapting early words. But if I can figure out a way to be consistent with later constructions AND preserve the original form, I consider it even better.