Post B6ZMcC56U9q

Александр Запрягаев Sep 20, 2017 (10:07)

Tell me about your workaround solutions for the conjunction 'so that/in order to/ut'. Or maybe there is something attested? I think this is physically the second most important clause connector after the relative pronoun and needed almost always.

Tamas Ferencz Sep 20, 2017 (11:34)

That is not an easy question and i do not have a definite answer; lacking a specific attestation I would say you can may be playing with workarounds using
- a gerund in dative as in enyalien
- the particular infinitive with or without a pronominal suffix
- a future imperfect participle with or without a pronominal suffix

Leonard W. Sep 20, 2017 (11:38)

Dative gerund, I guess? Depends on the context. A probable construction ought to be comyan ondor carien coanya "I gather stones for the building of my home".

Also, G+ so is not optimised for the iPhone. I kept submitting my post too early!

Tamas Ferencz Sep 20, 2017 (11:50)

We have

- ita/tai conj. “that which, what”, and
- itas, adv. “in that case” (PE22)

where the latter appears to be a short locative of the former; therefore I propose that *itan, a dative form of ita would be a viable choice for "so that, in order"

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Sep 20, 2017 (19:34)

As far as Sindarin goes, I'd say we're rather lucky to have STEL / thel- (WJ:318-9) from which to derive e.g. thíliel (+the desired action in the infinitive), or *theleth (> preposition + said noun + i/ias).

Ekin Gören Sep 22, 2017 (12:36)

I like thíliel. Though I would use gerunds after it, rather than infinitives, and with lenition:
Dagron, thíliel naged yrch.
[I battle, having intended slaying orcs.]

Tamas Ferencz Sep 22, 2017 (13:03)

+Ekin Gören why gerund? Here the second verb is the object of thílilel, I think an infinitive is appropriate?

Ekin Gören Sep 22, 2017 (13:27)

I'm influenced by "aníra suilannad/tírad" examples. Although they don't show lenition. Then "thíliel daged" may be better.

Александр Запрягаев Sep 22, 2017 (13:29)

+Tamas Ferencz Why do we have infinitives as objects separate from gerunds? Per LVS, that's Noldorin, not Sindarin.

Tamas Ferencz Sep 22, 2017 (13:43)

Okay, okay, I was influenced by Quenya it appears. Gerund it is then:)

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Sep 22, 2017 (14:14)

Continuing with the Sindarin expressions: I just realised that given the model mîl < MEL, the handily short *thîl might also be a valid abstract noun derivation from STEL. (And due to similarity with the stock of THIL, its use might imaginably indeed be stricter or even limited to certain expressions..)

Александр Запрягаев Sep 24, 2017 (08:48)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Somehow I forgot about an edraith ammen. Now I think that just an abstract now sent to dative is a good choice.

Tamas Ferencz Sep 26, 2017 (09:49)

I wanted to add that in Quenya there is also the adverb tanen which could also be used in sentences like "I came home so that ['and in that way'] you can leave" túlen mardenna tanen eke tyen auta