B7QXQAvSCLX — G+ LoME Archive

James Coish Jul 23, 2018 (05:28)

Please comment:

> √SER to love

nisserme n. a gay woman, lesbian
illiserme n. a pansexual woman
yuserme n. a bisexual woman
láserme n. an asexual woman

nersermo/nerseron n. a gay man
illisermo/illiseron n. a pansexual man
yusermo/yuseron n. a bisexual man
lásermo/láseron n. an asexual man

> √YER to feel sexual desire

nisyerme n. a gay woman, lesbian
illiyerme (maybe illiermo; iye becomes ie) n. a pansexual woman
yuyerme n. a bisexual woman
láyerme n. an asexual woman

neryermo n. a gay man
illiyermo (maybe illiermo; iye becomes ie) n. a pansexual man
yuyermo n. a bisexual man
_láyermo n. an asexual man

Paul Strack Jul 23, 2018 (05:57)

I’m not a fan of the root SER, especially in this context, so of the above, I think I’d prefer those based on YER.

For prefixal “all” I think I’d simply use il- as in ilyerme.

I think +Fiona Jallings coined similar terms in Sindarin, but I’m not sure where she put them.

Fiona Jallings Jul 23, 2018 (06:05)

They are on my Facebook page, but I can repost them here. Passer/passeron/passeril for pansexual. Alher/alheron/alheril for asexual. Dirher/dirheron/dirheril for __ attracted to men. Díher/díheron/díheril for __ attracted to women.

Fiona Jallings Jul 23, 2018 (06:08)

Oh, and we also reconstructed a word for "homosexual person" indil in Quenya, and innil in Sindarin, with ancient roots being IM+NDIL.

Paul Strack Jul 23, 2018 (06:08)

+Fiona Jallings Oh, you did use SER as the basis for your words. Well then, maybe its use by James is more acceptable. I personally don’t use SER because I think it’s likely to have been replaced by MEL and NDIL.

Fiona Jallings Jul 23, 2018 (06:09)

Oh, and im passeril, a le?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 23, 2018 (09:53)

+Fiona Jallings indil is already attested as "lily". I am not normally too worried about homophones, but in this case it may be misconstrued as mockery?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 23, 2018 (10:36)

Would *imnil be a possible form, with some sort of a "de-strengthening" of the initial consonant?

James Coish Jul 23, 2018 (15:33)

I used SER based on Fiona's Sindarin seron. But of all the "love/desire" roots YER seems most appropriate for this sense.

James Coish Jul 23, 2018 (15:33)

+Fiona Jallings Im dirheron.

James Coish Jul 23, 2018 (15:39)

Of course, as Fiona can attests these are just a few of the "labels" (lol) that the LGBT community use.

Remy Corbin Jul 23, 2018 (15:39)

+Tamas Ferencz But indil/innil could be also connected to some romantic myth like story of Daphne or Narcissus...

James Coish Jul 23, 2018 (15:51)

+Remy Corbin perhaps for a woman..I wouldn't want to be compared to a lily. 😊

James Coish Jul 23, 2018 (16:00)

Does Tolkien have any roots for romantic love? The roots I find translated as love are more "as a friend". Of course, I believe you should love your partner as a friend, first and foremost.

Fiona Jallings Jul 23, 2018 (16:00)

That was another concern that I had about indil. There is a long history across many cultures of using flowers as perjoratives for queer people. Like in Japan, gay men called "rose" and lesbians called "lily".

Fiona Jallings Jul 23, 2018 (16:01)

We don't have any words or roots for romantic love, no.

Remy Corbin Jul 23, 2018 (16:14)

+James Coish Well, do not think so hobbitish. Lily looks less feminin than e.g. orchid, after all it has its protruding pistil and stamens. Although orchid is the one called after testicles. That's tricky... ;-)

Remy Corbin Jul 23, 2018 (16:20)

Maybe in Atanquesta NDIL could stand for 'like', MEL for 'platonic love', and SER for romantic one?

James Coish Jul 23, 2018 (16:28)

+Paul Strack il- does help with the tricky iye > ie situation.

Paul Strack Jul 23, 2018 (17:38)

+James Coish yes it does. Also, illi is a stand-alone form, whereas il- is the typical prefixal form.

Paul Strack Jul 23, 2018 (21:09)

Regarding roots, I believe that MEL encapsulates both romantic and platonic love based on words like Q. melda “beloved” and that N. melethril/melethron “lover”. NDIL is only platonic, and the same is probably true of SER (which I wouldn’t use, replacing it with NDIL).

Carl Hostetter Jul 24, 2018 (01:21)

But IM means 'self', not 'same' (which is what Gk. homo means); and 'lover of self' is surely not the same as 'lover of same (gender)', no? (Nor, for that matter does NDIL mean 'sexual attraction/desire': otherwise "Earendil" would be, well....)

Tamas Ferencz Jul 24, 2018 (01:35)

+Carl Hostetter but im- as a prefix is glossed as "same" in VT47, ism't it?

Carl Hostetter Jul 24, 2018 (01:47)

Yes, but as the same(!) note states, the underlying meaning is reflexive, i.e., referring to self, i.e., to the "same person" or "same thing", not to the same type of person/thing.

Carl Hostetter Jul 24, 2018 (02:01)

That being said, the difficulty lies not just with IM-, but with its pairing with NDIL; "Self-love(r)" being NOT AT ALL the same thing as "same-sexual", any more than Gk. philautia is the same as homosexual.

Carl Hostetter Jul 24, 2018 (02:19)

(After all, the difference between homoousios 'same [=identical] substance' and homoiousios 'similar [=same type] substance', was one of great and even deadly contention in the Church of Tolkien's faith!)

James Coish Jul 24, 2018 (02:46)

+Carl Hostetter I am honoured that you are on my post! Thank you for your insight!

Carl Hostetter Jul 24, 2018 (02:54)

That's very kind, +James Coish! Thanks! (But of course my comments must stand or fall on their own merit, not on my name!)

Carl Hostetter Jul 24, 2018 (03:57)

And ALL of this is to go to say: what distinctions in meaning (and thus language) would Tolkien's Elves have made, in this specific case, and/or generally? Which is to say, what distinctions in meaning would Tolkien have thought his Elves would have made? (That is, if integrity with and adherence to Tolkien's Elvish is to be maintained. If that's not a concern here, then, well, carry on....)

Tamas Ferencz Jul 24, 2018 (09:20)

+Carl Hostetter you may be right - in which case it's possible that the adjective "same" would have developed similarly to English "same", i.e. from "one, one-like"