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Paul Strack Feb 10, 2018 (16:32)

I've release Eldamo 0.6.1:

This is the first release of Eldamo that does not have any new data entry. It involves a major reorganization of the data, as discussed here:

I also had to abandon the Gentium webfont, which makes me sad. I started using that font many years ago because of its excellent support for combining diacritics (rare at the time). But modern fonts have caught up with, and I am starting to use emoji-based icons in Eldamo, and Gentium has no support of emoji's.

I've switched to Times New Roman, which is serviceable but boring. Ah well, at least it is universally supported.
Eldamo : Home
Eldamo - An Elvish Lexicon. by Paul Strack — v0.6.1 — generated February 9, 2018. Languages · References · Search. This collection of documents is a lexicon of Tolkien's invented languages, particularly his Elvish languages, which are the most detailed. The collection is called a “lexicon” because it ...

Paul Strack Feb 10, 2018 (16:44)

Oh, and I've added SSL supported to, because apparently that affects search rankings in Google. So if you don't want anyone spying on your Elvish studies, that's an option now :)

Tamas Ferencz Feb 10, 2018 (16:51)

I will make it my mission to find a nice typeface for Eldamo ☺️

Tamas Ferencz Feb 10, 2018 (17:42)

Will you consider a sans serif typeface? In my opinion they are better suited for screens, especially smaller handheld devices.

Paul Strack Feb 10, 2018 (17:49)

+Tamas Ferencz It’s a nice thought and I’m open to ideas. A web font with emoji support is going to be too large for mobile. Native fonts will have to have very wide support. As boring as it is, Times New Roman is supported more or less everywhere.

I am open to suggestions though. I’m tempted to hack Gentium and add the handful of emoji’s I want to use.

Tamas Ferencz Feb 10, 2018 (17:54)

+Paul Strack that's certainly an option of the SIL license allows it

Paul Strack Feb 10, 2018 (19:04)

OK, here is the Eldamo site in san-serif (Helvetica, default to Arial):

Tamas Ferencz Feb 10, 2018 (19:51)

+Paul Strack looks very good on desktop - will check on Android mobile, too

Paul Strack Feb 10, 2018 (20:16)

It bugs me how Ilkorin appears to start with double-L. But maybe I can learn to live with it.

Tamas Ferencz Feb 11, 2018 (00:22)

+Paul Strack but it's easier on the eye on a phone or tablet

Paul Strack Feb 11, 2018 (01:37)

The san-serif is starting to grow on me. I agree it is easier to read. I will try it out for a while on my local machine and see how I feel about it.

Lokyt L. Feb 11, 2018 (18:12)

1) Thank you +Paul Strack again for all the work. It's most appreciated.

2) Maybe it´s too late for such things, but... I just tried some search on Eldamo and realized it was not the first time that a search (i.e. Search) from multiple tabs (or simply something allowing me to search for multiple values at one time) would come handy.
E.g. if I want words beginning with "m" and at the same time containing "ai" anywhere within, all I can do is search for one of these values and then process the result manually.
Would it be difficult to add a functionality that would resolve this?

Paul Strack Feb 11, 2018 (18:25)

+Lokyt L. I am always up for suggestions. With search I have to balance usefulness with complexity. Adding too many search features makes simple searches harder.

Maybe there is another way I could support your requirements? Perhaps giving a way to export search results to a spreadsheet for more detailed analysis?

Tamas Ferencz Feb 11, 2018 (18:31)

+Paul Strack can wildcards/regexp be added to the search function?

Paul Strack Feb 11, 2018 (18:46)

+Tamas Ferencz Wildcards/regex is an even better idea. I like it. I will have to think about what's involved, but it should be possible.

Paul Strack Feb 11, 2018 (18:50)

+Tamas Ferencz I've decided against sans-serif. The non-Latin phonetic symbols become too hard to distinguish if I don't use a serif font. I asked over in the Discord server, and pretty much everyone preferred Serif. I switched from Times New Roman to Times, which is somewhat better.

Tamas Ferencz Feb 11, 2018 (18:57)

+Paul Strack OK - thanks for trying it out though

Paul Strack Feb 11, 2018 (19:02)

+Tamas Ferencz I end up trying a sans-serif font every two or three years and using it for a while before I remember why it doesn’t work. I do like the was sans-serif looks, but there are so many specialized symbols in Eldamo that serif is the only viable option.

Maybe I will remember that this time :)

Lokyt L. Feb 11, 2018 (19:02)

+Paul Strack Thank you!
I think generally there are three options: 1) indeed wildcards / regex / functions AND, OR etc.; 2) multiple search tabs (it doesn't have to be much of an addition: there's already a button that hides the filters, and this would only add one more such a button - one that would add/remove a second/third/etc. tab for inserting characters); 3) an option to apply the next search on the result of the previous search (instead of the full content of Eldamo again).

Paul Strack Feb 11, 2018 (19:06)

+Lokyt L. Right now I think wildcards are the best option. They are simple to understand and meet most of the common use cases without making the basic search more complicated. I will experiment with wildcard searches to see what I can come up with.

Lokyt L. Feb 12, 2018 (00:09)

One more thing to consider: would wildcards allow to search for one value in "word" and another one in "gloss"?

Paul Strack Feb 12, 2018 (00:26)

+Lokyt L. No ... but is that a likely use case? I think most people are searching for one or the other, not both simultaneously.

Lokyt L. Feb 12, 2018 (00:58)

Well, actually... this was exactly the case that brought me here today :) (I searched for all Eldarin words on "m-" with a certain set of English words in their glosses.)

Paul Strack Feb 12, 2018 (01:08)

+Lokyt L. Can you tell me specifically what you are trying to do? Why can’t you search for the English words and look at them alphabetically?

Lokyt L. Feb 12, 2018 (01:36)

+Paul Strack Well, because 1) I must search for the English words one at a time, and 2) the result I get each time is arranged primarily by languages (alphabetical ordering comes only within each language).
Today I searched for about 15 English words and some of them turned to gloss words in more than 5 Eldarin languages (early-middle-late...). That gave me altogether dozens of alphabetically arranged gloss+language-subsets to search for "m"-words manually :)

It's no problem to do this manual work (or to copy all the results somewhere else and continue working with them outside Eldamo). I do just that if this kind of situation arrives. But it consumes time, compared to the ideal situation of having precisely the set of results I need in front of me within a few seconds (let alone all clickable at once) - which is something a spoilt user of today's internet got used to ;)

Paul Strack Feb 12, 2018 (01:43)

+Lokyt L. You are telling how you are doing things, but I’d like to know what you are looking for. What English words are you trying to find Elvish equivalents beginning with M? Are you only looking for Quenya, Sindarin or both? Do you care about the time period of the word?

So far what you are trying to do seems very strange to me. Unless I understand better what you are trying to accomplish, I can’t suggest the best way to do it, or figure out how to enhance the system to support it.

My only guess is you are trying to formulate a motto or personal name that you want to begin with the letter M for some reason.

Lokyt L. Feb 12, 2018 (02:08)

Ah, I see, sorry. Here's the story:
I'm currently tracing Tolkien's ideas about the semantic field of "will-intention-desire-wish". And at the particular moment, I was interested in the evolution surrounding the roots MEN, MER, MBER, MED and their possible early predecessors (like MEK).
So the search aimed at all roots and derivations, regardless of time period, on "m-" or (former) "mb-" with a gloss from the area I mentioned ("want", "wish", "desire", "long", "greed", "lust", "intend", "aim", "goal", "will", "resolve", "mean" etc. etc.).

Paul Strack Feb 12, 2018 (02:29)

+Lokyt L. Ooo. A linguistic research use case. That’s very sophisticated. I wasn’t even aware people were trying to use Eldamo that way.

I think the best way to support something like that would be the AND, OR keywords you were suggesting earlier, combined with wildcards. For example:

m* AND (want OR wish OR desire)

Combined with a language restriction of “All Primitive Elvish”

The AND, OR keywords would probably be generally useful as well, especially in combination with wildcards.

I will think about it. If we are going in the direction, search results that are bookmarkable or linkable would also be useful, especially for discussion purposes.

Lokyt L. Feb 12, 2018 (03:28)

Er... I thought being used this way was Eldamo's PRIMARY raison d'être :D

It's true that the combination you suggest ("m* AND ...") would give a limited enough set of results (the number of unwanted entries that would pass would be acceptably small, while no wanted entry would be missed). As it would be the case with probably any complicated search, if one combines wildcards and logical operators smartly enough. Good point.
Though I also agree that bookmarkable, linkable and - most importantly - searchable search results would be simply perfect.