Post EFsBzi4H9V8

Tamas Ferencz May 09, 2018 (16:13)

My latest post about rats and birds in Quenya Chat has made me try to find - so far unsuccessfully - some good ways to express the following:
result, outcome
belong to, be part of (as a verb)
species, type, sort

Any ideas?

Tamas Ferencz May 09, 2018 (16:48)

Regarding 'outcome', tulma is 'event', but *ettulma could, quite iterally, be 'outcome'. Sounds like an Anglicism, but there is something very similar in Hungarian, too, so the idea seems widespread.

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ May 09, 2018 (18:23)

- My suggestions for "a result" can be found at

- The swiftest way to translate "success" is probably to pick one's favourite from the results that come when you go to Eldamo Search and type in "luck" or "fortu.."

Tamas Ferencz May 09, 2018 (18:42)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ stupid me, I should have checked there first. Cheers!

Robert Reynolds May 11, 2018 (13:54)

Regarding ‘species’, the Early Quenya nostale seems like it would be equivalent/updated to ontale after the change in meaning of the underlying verb, yet that word is given the meaning ‘descent’ which may or may not be suitable with the older glosses. Other general words for the concept seem based on that root, like nosse, or lie and indicate relations, which makes sense but may be overloaded. Two words are glossed with ‘kind, sort’ and use the natural pair ​-ite, ​-ima; these seem unsuitable as standalone but may be useful in a compound. The etymology of ‘species’ < Latin ‘speciēs’ is basically “a group of beings having similar appearance” with a verbal stem corresponding to tir and an abstract noun suffix; the “kind, quality, type” meaning came figuratively. One could combine several of these ideas with constructs like *ovítie, *ovítile, *ovítisse, *ovítilie; *ontaitie, *ontaitive/​-le, *ontaitisse, *ontaitilie; *onoitie, *onoitive/​-le, *onoitisse; *lítie, *lítive, *lítisse; *onemítie, *onemítive/​-le, *onemítisse, *onemítilie. The ones based on ve seem particularly interesting in that they relate the underlying meanings ‘as, like; apparent, seeming’ and ‘being’: ‘a like-seeming sort/kind of beings’. There are quite a few other variations on this theme, especially omitting the o-, though I’m uncertain how “Elvish” the theme is. Also, my lámatyáve appreciates some of these more than others.

Tamas Ferencz May 11, 2018 (14:17)

+Robert Reynolds I don't get the idea behind *olítie etc. Can you explain?
Some derivation of ovéa/vávea could indeed be a way. Do we have nominal derivations of purely prepositional roots? Will have to look around.

Looking at the etymology behind Latin typus something based on kanta "shape" might be valid.

Another root that intrigues me is SRIT and its attested Sindarin derivate rhaed "peculiar hue, special fashion". I feel that somehow could be extended to mean "type, sort. hue", maybe not "species", because the root seems to refer to artificial objects.

Robert Reynolds May 11, 2018 (14:32)

+Tamas Ferencz I didn’t use o- with those, but they’re from √LI as in lie.

We do have some such nominal derivatives: √RŌ/ORO immediately comes to mind, having several.

I agree that √KAT is potentially suitable and may leave other roots/constructs more available for other specific meanings, as (for instance) √NŌ/ONO has so many potential meanings that may be useful in NQ.

Cognate *(h)raite < √SRIT of rhaed also seems interesting, although I agree that its underlying meaning seems to refer to designed outcomes; this may have been acceptable to the Eldar with the Valar having designed/made animals and plants but seems to exclude evolution by natural selection in our world, although nature and the natural world may be a figurative designer/former/shaper. It may well be suitable for other related concepts and related to √KAT.

Tamas Ferencz May 11, 2018 (14:45)

+Robert Reynolds ah, LI, okay. Thanks!

Tamas Ferencz May 11, 2018 (14:47)

For 'belongs to, be part of' a construction like yonda mi/-sse "enclosed within" comes to mind.

Tamas Ferencz May 11, 2018 (14:50)

I think nostale is useful for "nature [non-manmade world]"

Tamas Ferencz May 11, 2018 (14:53)

Of course we have nouns coming from prepositional roots, there ambo for instance. And, as you say, oron etc.

Robert Reynolds May 11, 2018 (15:07)

+Tamas Ferencz The etymology of ‘nature’ < Latin nātūra “birth, origin, natural constitution or quality” is underlaid by L nāscor “to beget, give birth to; to be begotten, be born”: an essentially exact cognate of LQ nosta-. The idea of nature as “original constitution or quality, before affection (as by humans)” makes sense to me and was directly used by Tolkien, given that gloss of EQ nostale, so I agree.

Robert Reynolds May 11, 2018 (15:43)

+Tamas Ferencz yonda mi/-sse could work for some usages, as hominya yonda hroanyasse/mi hroanya ‘my heart is within/part of/belongs to my body’; derivatives of √PEL could work similarly. For that usage/sense, √SAT comes to my mind: hominya asta hroanyo of similar meaning or with mi/-sse; or perhaps simply hominya hroanyo ‘my heart is of my body’ or hominya hroanyasse/mi hroanya ‘my heart is in/within my body’.

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ May 11, 2018 (16:12)

"Species" : The Hebrew roots MYN and SWG (& the nouns mîn, sûg ) make one consider the possible usefulness of (G)LAN [], bearing in mind the attested adj/noun examples from the phonetically similar roots KHAN, MAN ("bless"), RAN, TEN, SWIN, WAN. For clarity, a compound where the other element is "birth" might be sensible.

I wish I was able to find out the etymology of Welsh math.

Robert Reynolds May 11, 2018 (17:02)

“belong to, be part of”: speaking of prepositional roots, one direct and active-ish verbal possibility is *hóya- (formative, intransitive) ‘to come from, be from, be from among, belong to, be part of, arta (as described by a genitive); to come together, join with, combine with’ from the different ✶hō meanings with *hóta- as a possible transitive/causative version meaning something like ‘to assimilate; to bring together, join, combine’. Since *erta- nicely (and Sindarin-attestedly) carries the ‘unite, (lit.) make one’ meanings, these could be free for the first set of meanings.

The perfect form of hóya- would be interesting: blindly applying the non-analogical steps would give ??oie < ohóie; analogy with the past form hónye/honye would give augmentless hónie or augmented ónie. hóta would be less wild: augmentless perfect hótie and past honte for intransitive formative (if -ya version is undesirable) or hótanie and past hótane for causative.

Tamas Ferencz May 11, 2018 (17:27)

+Robert Reynolds interesting speculations - I need to give it a good thought