G+ LoME Archive
May 09, 2018 (16:13)
My latest post about rats and birds in Quenya Chat has made me try to find - so far unsuccessfully - some good ways to express the following:
belong to, be part of (as a verb)
species, type, sort
May 09, 2018 (16:48)
is 'event', but
could, quite iterally, be 'outcome'. Sounds like an Anglicism, but there is something very similar in Hungarian, too, so the idea seems widespread.
May 09, 2018 (18:23)
- My suggestions for "a result" can be found at
- The swiftest way to translate "success" is probably to pick one's favourite from the results that come when you go to Eldamo Search and type in "luck" or "fortu.."
May 09, 2018 (18:42)
stupid me, I should have checked there first. Cheers!
May 11, 2018 (13:54)
Regarding ‘species’, the Early Quenya
seems like it would be equivalent/updated to
after the change in meaning of the underlying verb, yet that word is given the meaning ‘descent’ which may or may not be suitable with the older glosses. Other general words for the concept seem based on that root, like
and indicate relations, which makes sense but may be overloaded. Two words are glossed with ‘kind, sort’ and use the natural pair
; these seem unsuitable as standalone but may be useful in a compound. The etymology of ‘species’ < Latin ‘speciēs’ is basically “a group of beings having similar appearance” with a verbal stem corresponding to
and an abstract noun suffix; the “kind, quality, type” meaning came figuratively. One could combine several of these ideas with constructs like
*ovítie, *ovítile, *ovítisse, *ovítilie; *ontaitie, *ontaitive/-le, *ontaitisse, *ontaitilie; *onoitie, *onoitive/-le, *onoitisse; *lítie, *lítive, *lítisse; *onemítie, *onemítive/-le, *onemítisse, *onemítilie
. The ones based on
seem particularly interesting in that they relate the underlying meanings ‘as, like; apparent, seeming’ and ‘being’: ‘a like-seeming sort/kind of beings’. There are quite a few other variations on this theme, especially omitting the
, though I’m uncertain how “Elvish” the theme is. Also, my
appreciates some of these more than others.
May 11, 2018 (14:17)
I don't get the idea behind
etc. Can you explain?
Some derivation of
could indeed be a way. Do we have nominal derivations of purely prepositional roots? Will have to look around.
Looking at the etymology behind Latin
something based on
"shape" might be valid.
Another root that intrigues me is SRIT and its attested Sindarin derivate
"peculiar hue, special fashion". I feel that somehow could be extended to mean "type, sort. hue", maybe not "species", because the root seems to refer to artificial objects.
May 11, 2018 (14:32)
I didn’t use
with those, but they’re from √LI as in
We do have some such nominal derivatives: √RŌ/ORO immediately comes to mind, having several.
I agree that √KAT is potentially suitable and may leave other roots/constructs more available for other specific meanings, as (for instance) √NŌ/ONO has so many potential meanings that may be useful in NQ.
< √SRIT of
also seems interesting, although I agree that its underlying meaning seems to refer to designed outcomes; this may have been acceptable to the Eldar with the Valar having designed/made animals and plants but seems to exclude evolution by natural selection in our world, although nature and the natural world may be a figurative designer/former/shaper. It may well be suitable for other related concepts and related to √KAT.
May 11, 2018 (14:45)
ah, LI, okay. Thanks!
May 11, 2018 (14:47)
For 'belongs to, be part of' a construction like
"enclosed within" comes to mind.
May 11, 2018 (14:50)
is useful for "nature [non-manmade world]"
May 11, 2018 (14:53)
Of course we have nouns coming from prepositional roots, there
for instance. And, as you say,
May 11, 2018 (15:07)
The etymology of ‘nature’ < Latin nātūra “birth, origin, natural constitution or quality” is underlaid by L nāscor “to beget, give birth to; to be begotten, be born”: an essentially exact cognate of LQ
. The idea of nature as “original constitution or quality, before affection (as by humans)” makes sense to me and was directly used by Tolkien, given that gloss of EQ
, so I agree.
May 11, 2018 (15:43)
could work for some usages, as
hominya yonda hroanyasse/mi hroanya
‘my heart is within/part of/belongs to my body’; derivatives of √PEL could work similarly. For that usage/sense, √SAT comes to my mind:
hominya asta hroanyo
of similar meaning or with
; or perhaps simply
‘my heart is of my body’ or
hominya hroanyasse/mi hroanya
‘my heart is in/within my body’.
May 11, 2018 (16:12)
"Species" : The Hebrew roots MYN and SWG (& the nouns
) make one consider the possible usefulness of (G)LAN [
], bearing in mind the attested adj/noun examples from the phonetically similar roots KHAN, MAN ("bless"), RAN, TEN, SWIN, WAN. For clarity, a compound where the other element is "birth" might be sensible.
I wish I was able to find out the etymology of Welsh
May 11, 2018 (17:02)
“belong to, be part of”: speaking of prepositional roots, one direct and active-ish verbal possibility is *hóya- (formative, intransitive) ‘to come from, be from, be from among, belong to, be part of, arta (as described by a genitive); to come together, join with, combine with’ from the different ✶hō meanings with *hóta- as a possible transitive/causative version meaning something like ‘to assimilate; to bring together, join, combine’. Since *erta- nicely (and Sindarin-attestedly) carries the ‘unite, (lit.) make one’ meanings, these could be free for the first set of meanings.
The perfect form of hóya- would be interesting: blindly applying the non-analogical steps would give ??oie < ohóie; analogy with the past form hónye/honye would give augmentless hónie or augmented ónie. hóta would be less wild: augmentless perfect hótie and past honte for intransitive formative (if -ya version is undesirable) or hótanie and past hótane for causative.
May 11, 2018 (17:27)
interesting speculations - I need to give it a good thought