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Olga García Jan 11, 2013 (23:12)

I wonder why most people tend to just care about "late" and "LotR-compatible" material, and despise anything "early" concerning both languages and legendarium. Seriously? This annoys me.

Thankfully there are a few people who, like me, really care about Tolkien's "early" languages and legendarium. The most notable example of whom I know is Roman Rausch, webmaster of Sindanórië.

And finally here's my opinion on the legendarium: I prefer the early versions since they happen in our own world, so one can really feel that might have happened. Moreover I also prefer to believe that Quenya and Noldorin were distinct languages (with Beleriandic being yet another one) rather than that the Noldor spoke Quenya and adopted Sindarin.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 12, 2013 (18:12)

'Despise' is a strong word.
I cannot speak for others, of course. As for my viewpoint on 'early' material: I love them, admire, them, read them, have them available in VTs and PEs. I just have not yet managed to gather the time and energy to learn them to a level on which I could use them comfortably. But I will, one they, because it's intriguing to have the big vocabularies of Goldogrin and Qenya at fingertips!
What I'm not comfortable is mixing e.g. very early Qenya forms with later material. To me that feels as if I started mixing Old English words into my speech.

Jenna Carpenter Jan 12, 2013 (21:00)

The early works (Goldogrin particularly for me with Sindarin), but Qenya also are invaluable for vocabulary ideas/roots (really wish I could get hold of a copy of PE11 :( )

Ицхак Пензев Jan 13, 2013 (16:16)

I think, early materials can indeed provide us with vocabulary items missing in the later sources, but only under some conditions:
1) they must be phoneticly consistent with LotR-style phonology;
2) they shouldn't override the roots attested later;
3) they need to be adapted grammatically (if needed).

Olga García Jan 13, 2013 (20:34)

Yes, but what I mean is that early materials should be given a little more love. Like using/appreciating the earlier versions/conceptions of the languages instead of only caring about the LotR canon.

Ицхак Пензев Jan 13, 2013 (21:25)

Olga, I understand your feelings, but the very structures of languages of early documents like "Qenya Lexicon" and the one of the LotR are too much different. People needed to make a choice for the standard. Later texts make more sense. That's all. No despice. Mere common sense.
You may wonder how much of the early material
1) is indeed incorporated into Neo-Quenya compositions nowadays;
2) shows stability during the years and decades, and even triconsonantal verb roots pop up as late as in PE17 publications (that's ca. 1960s, I think).

Olga García Jan 13, 2013 (21:55)

In which ways do you think the later material makes more sense? Because I personally like the early theory of Eldarin tongues being spoken in the real world, and also the theory of Qenya/Noldorin/Beleriandic I talked about above.

Ицхак Пензев Jan 14, 2013 (09:12)

The only sense I find is that LotR was published, but the early language materials remained in Tolkien's private archives.
Friendly yours, 
Isaac (now I see my Cyrillic signature is illegible ;) )

Fiona Jallings Jan 17, 2013 (22:32)

In my case, I focus on later writings for simple convenience. People want translations from the LotR-era, so that's what I give them. I don't actually despise the earlier material, it's just that I can't focus on all of it at the same time, so I might as well focus on the part that's more useful to me.

Olga García Jan 17, 2013 (22:59)

+Xandarien Elanessa I have the Gnomish Lexicon and I'd love to help you, but I'm afraid to leave my attempts public, go figure. :$

Olga García Jan 18, 2013 (21:33)

Yes, I understand all the fuss. People want things related to LotR simply because Tolkien decided to publish LotR instead of his early works. But I did read somewhere that Tolkien preferred his original mythology better and that he wrote LotR in response to Hobbit fans.

But this raises the question of why he really decided to publish The Hobbit instead of his early material...

Jenna Carpenter Jan 18, 2013 (23:14)

+Olga García Yes I know the feeling :) I don't have a very thick skin, so I tend to not make much of what I do public. Have to say I'm a tad jealous that you own it though hehe.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 19, 2013 (11:12)

+Olga García he probably decided to publish +#TheHobbit because a) it was finished as opposed to the early stories, and b) the publishers told him it was worth publishing. This of course does not diminish the value of any of his other stories, at all.

Matt Dinse Feb 06, 2013 (05:17)

I'm quite fond of the 'feel' that 20s/30s Noldorin has (PE13, Nebrachar, etc.), moreso than Sindarin; I'm quite enthralled with the phonological charts and whatnot in PE19 at the moment, and am eagerly looking forward to the 30s Noldorin historical grammar mentioned in one of the PEs to be published. All the more, then, am I disappointed that I didn't manage to get a copy of PE18 while it was available.

Olga García Mar 16, 2013 (19:37)

Well, I've read somewhere (precisely in PE18) that there is not only that Noldorin grammar but also contemporary Qenya and Doriathrin grammars. I'm also looking forward to seeing that, especially the Doriathrin part. Hope PE21 reveals something...

By the way, I hope this helps everyone get digitalized Tolkien material, including PE's and VT's (and I also hope it doesn't get censored :$):

Sorry if I have taken too long to write this...

Matt Dinse Mar 31, 2013 (18:24)

How interesting! I will be excited to see those as well. I look forward to a day when we can compose poetry in 30s Noldorin (and such) without having to borrow conventions/conjugations from Sindarin.

Don't worry about having taken too long; I am far worse in that regard, usually. ;)