G+ LoME Archive
Dec 18, 2017 (00:23)
For Q chatting it would seem fitting to have a Q word for the English language. There is the very early Q word
"England" that seems based on long-since-superseded mythology equating England with
as a personal name of a particular English lord, so using
as a stem feels awkward conceptually and phonologically (
would presumably become
would presumably give assimilated
would presumably translate as "Englandish"). There's similarly old Gnomish
"English (language)" but
seems to come from a root meaning "fierce hatred, revenge". Any ideas?
Dec 18, 2017 (01:15)
While Ingil- no longer makes sense in the fictional context of Tolkien’s world, I think it is still a plausible phonetic adaptation of Engl- so I would continue to use Ingilnóre. If so, Ingillin or Ingilin seems fine for “English”.
If you don’t like that, maybe Angalnóre and Angallin, with the assumption that the Elves named the land while it was still inhabited by the Angles. Early Quenya Angali = “Angles” is attested.
Dec 18, 2017 (01:56)
I like the idea of phonetic borrowing for country names as it seems extensible to most such names like Tamas'
for Hungary and Helge Fauskanger's
"Egyptian (not language)" and
"Egypt". It's interesting to explore ways to do it in various cases.
Dec 18, 2017 (03:37)
, one interesting (and perhaps slightly overthought) notion is to derive a general adjective
“English, of the English people” that could also be used nominally to mean the English language, paralleling the word
itself. That could give
“Englishmen (general plural)”,
“the English people”, *Angaldóre, *Angalyandóre “England”, and
n. and adj. “English (language, racial adj), the English (people)”. The masochistic could inflect that for possessive/adjectival:
, an adjective-like noun from a nominalized adjective from a nominalized adjective from a noun. :)
Dec 18, 2017 (03:53)
I think you are going a bit over board. The -rin suffix is already adjectival. Just as “English” is both an adjective describing the people of England and a noun for their language, Telerin is both a adjective meaning “of the Teleri” and a noun for their language. From this, you can get an adjectival form Telerinwa “of the Telerin language”.
Dec 18, 2017 (09:27)
Let's translate 'angle' and call'em Nehterin:)
Dec 18, 2017 (09:52)
Angal, Angalion, Tol Angal
would all work for me for the country, and
for the language.
Dec 18, 2017 (09:52)
Although the Scots, Welsh, and Cornish would probably take an exception to Tol Angal:)
Dec 18, 2017 (13:23)
I agree concerning the superfluity: it was moreso a playful/amusing excursion into hypotheticals that Tolkien's linguistic framework allow rather than a serious attempt to coin words. Compare my reconstruction of the "past future perfect particular infinitive": not necessarily wrong but quite impractical. I've always had very intense enthusiasm toward my interests, as is common among persons with what used to be called Asperger syndrome. I would probably choose
for euphony (keeping the stress on the first syllable) in serious usage.
Dec 18, 2017 (16:47)
I'm not sure if
fits the Quenya phonetics. BTW, is there an opportunity to find you in a messenger, for an occasional private talk?
Dec 18, 2017 (18:01)
I think that it doesn't fully fit as
isn't permitted. I don't want to speak for anyone but as far as I can tell, the challenge is that primitive postvocalic
as in Hungarian
and later disappeared completely as in
*lugne > *luȝne > lúne
"blue" (HKF's paper "The Evolution From Primitive Elvish To Quenya") and lengthened the preceding vowel when followed by a consonant, giving
magyar > máyar > maiar
, a name with rather positive connotations but sounding somewhat different from
. On the other hand,
madyar > malyar
or, based on at least one irregular case,
madyar > maðyar > mazyar > maryar/masyar
, which to me still don't sound particularly similar to the original. Since
can exist independently in at least Vanyarin Q (
is close enough to Q. I'll reply to your Hangouts msg now. :)
Dec 18, 2017 (20:44)
For historic reasons magyar is spelled with a gy, but you pronounce it as dy
Dec 18, 2017 (20:48)
That's interesting to know :)
Dec 18, 2017 (21:20)
I think, any adaptation of foreign names may fit, with no respect to phonology limitations, under the condition that one can write it with Tengwar.
Dec 19, 2017 (00:49)
Maybe the closest phonetic adaptation would be Matyarnóre. The phonotactics of Quenya are so constrained that any phonetic adaptation is going to only vaguely resemble the original.
Dec 19, 2017 (00:54)
I would not take aldudenie as concrete evidence that intervocalic d is valid in Vanyarin. It’s only one form, and all of Tolkien’s phonetic descriptions of Vanyarin indicate that d generally underwent the same development in both the Noldorin and Vanyarin dialects of Quenya.
Dec 19, 2017 (01:35)
I thought it was odd that in HKF's paper, the postvocalic
shift was depicted as having occurred well before Vanyarin and Noldorin split and that form seemingly wasn't mentioned even as a special case. I appreciate your big-picture perspective.
Dec 19, 2017 (05:23)
is exactly the form I would expect. Although I need to emphasize that I mean only phonetic inventory as it is represented in Tengwar, not the phonotactics. That is why something like
may be quite okay in spite of
cluster, while intervocalic
is not, since there is no tengwa to represent it.
Dec 19, 2017 (07:23)
Hmm. I am inclined to think Quenya would add vowels to break up the invalid clusters, such as Angle > Angal or Ucraina > Ucaraina. But that depends on whether you want to translate or transliterate the name. And honestly, the Elves are sufficiently skilled linguists that they would probably have little trouble with sounds and sound combinations outside their own languages.
Dec 19, 2017 (08:47)
Perhaps they would rather nasalise that
and make it
. But indeed
is a possibility. For the time being I'll stick to_Madyar_ and let the strongest form prevail!