Fiona Jallings Aug 04, 2016 (08:27)

So I was going through the sentence-syntax lesson, editing it and preparing it for the book, and after working on it non-stop for about 12 hours (forgot to eat lunch or dinner, I was so absorbed into it) I came up with a new idea for how to handle "en estar" and "estathar aen". Maybe I'm a little loopy from low-blood sugar and what I came up with is nonsense best ignored, I have no idea. So I'm sharing it with you guys to get it picked apart before I add it to my book.

The crux of it is - these both are passive voice. We can't be sure what exactly else is going on with them, but passive voice - that is pretty certain. I think that this passive voice syntax was abandoned in Tolkien's later Sindarin, since we've got "Noun [copula] past participle" for the passive voice attested later on.

And thus, a new idiom grows in my mind:
noun1 noun2 estannen.
noun1 is called noun2.

Noun2 isn't mutated.

And then, because of how one introduces oneself (myself Fiona - Im Fiona) which means that the name avoids being mutated as a direct object - we'd use "im" instead.

im noun2 estannen.
myself is called noun2 / I'm called noun2.

So, is this a nonsense interpretation or am I on to something? (whoa, sentences are getting hard to string together, not sure how understandable all of that will be)

Lőrinczi Gábor Aug 04, 2016 (19:14)

I would introduce myself like this:

Im Gábor.
Gábor i eneth nîn.


Nin Gábor estar en/Nin estar en Gábor.

(But the last one doesn't necessarily indicate that my real name is Gábor.)

Your phrase with the past participle form sounds weird to me. (I feel it to be an anglicism.) What do you mean that "we've got "Noun [copula] past participle" for the passive voice attested later on"?

Fiona Jallings Aug 04, 2016 (19:19)

That's the whole basis of "Mae govannen". PE17/17, he broke it down as "well thou [art] met."

Lőrinczi Gábor Aug 04, 2016 (19:37)

Oh, I forgot about that one.

Lőrinczi Gábor Aug 04, 2016 (20:16)

However, it's not improbable that mae govannen is a special expression, a kind of idiom, so I'm not fully convinced that phrases formed with passive participles can be used in "daily" Sindarin.

Fiona Jallings Aug 04, 2016 (20:58)

The source of the phrase is what is built in Sindarin grammar, then do to its wearing down it became idiomatic, in my opinion.

Such a structure is also found in Quenya, "aistana elye" for example, and "Turambar turún' ambartanen" off the top of my head. So a similar syntax showing up in Sindarin would be expected, I imagine.