Post HTTaYdJKE4P

Александр Запрягаев Aug 11, 2015 (13:23)

With the new +#PE22 information, unexpected complications arose when making statements. We were told that LA negates adjectives and verbs only, and only those possessing a clearly-defined contrary; and even when he thought about negating with UGU, Tolkien never expanded it beyond these two classes. So:
• How should we express an idea like 'I am not an Elf'? In Quenya, no problem: lánye Elda, but what in Sindarin? Other than attempting to reconstruct a possible LA-conjugations in S., I see no way.
• What is the word for 'nothing'? Únad is plainly wrong, lánad contradicts the stated as well. Negating the verb? But does then the sentence ilquen i Elda lá ecénie mean 'no one saw an Elf' or 'not everyone saw an Elf' — and no matter which one is true, how then to express the second meaning?

Tamas Ferencz Aug 11, 2015 (13:36)

You could just go with the attested munta for 'nothing', it is not apparently related to any sort of negation, but at leas doe not clash with any later word, either

Александр Запрягаев Aug 11, 2015 (13:39)

+Tamas Ferencz Attested where, exactly? It seems to me close enough to G. unt to be immediately acceptable.

Tamas Ferencz Aug 11, 2015 (13:49)

+Александр Запрягаев
PE14:81 according to Helge's wordlist; I can check later if any further details are given.

Александр Запрягаев Aug 11, 2015 (14:12)

+Tamas Ferencz I found it; I feel really uncomfortable to take Leeds 1923 Qenya materials (still connected to the word-lists of the Lexicons) to fix late — not even Quenya, but Sindarin.

Gabriele Gonzalez Aug 11, 2015 (14:43)

What about the prefix al- (Ety. 367)?

Александр Запрягаев Aug 11, 2015 (15:22)

+Gabriele Gonzalez That's that same I want to employ. It is explicitly confined to adjectives and verbs only, or maybe nouns having a meaning with a clear opposite (alasahtië for 'sin', or usahtië from 'bad' still valid?)

Gabriele Gonzalez Aug 11, 2015 (15:53)

I do not dare to draw my own conclusions, cause my knowlegde is too poor. Why is "Únad" wrong? Is the prefix ú- and the adverb û not longer valid?

Александр Запрягаев Aug 12, 2015 (17:04)

+Gabriele Gonzalez I believe quite valid; however, as UGU means 'bad, ugly', the word únad would be easily interpreted as somehow 'a bad thing'… After careful consideration, I actually believe now that both prefixes do apply to nouns; and allad would fit Tolkien's concept for Sindarin best possible. Still, we need the forms of *lá: lón, lól, law?

Gabriele Gonzalez Aug 12, 2015 (17:30)

And the steem UMU- has the same meaning as UGU? I know "law" as an interjection negating facts. Maybe this is more then just this? And sorry if my question seems a little stupid, but - why diferent forms of *la?

Александр Запрягаев Aug 12, 2015 (17:38)

+Gabriele Gonzalez And the stem UMU is banished after the 1940's documents and is invalid in late Quenya. As for , I'm unsure of the actual level of ablaut which would happen in such a Sindarin monosyllable from a long vowel.