Post J7TCF7FWh2k

Hjalmar Holm Apr 02, 2015 (01:08)

Does this work?

Ennas adh a-dandolen. Narn perian.

Александр Запрягаев Apr 02, 2015 (15:15)

I guess 'ennas' is supposed to be locative (< enta-sse), not allative. Ennan < enta-nna, rather? Also, 'narn perian' could be both a tale narrated by a hobbit and concerning him (thankfully, it's both!) Still, it is desired somehow to distinguish the two meanings: narn e-berian ('narn periana' even? 'pure possessive' as in PE17:97!) vs. narn o pherian, I suggest. In order to retain the opposition of destinations in the English title, I'd render:

Ennan a dassen: narn e-Berian

[*ennan < enta-nna (cf. Q. entanna)
*dassen < dan-si-nna (nasal mutation+A-affection)]

(Somehow it grew more complicated than I thought…)

Hjalmar Holm Apr 02, 2015 (17:44)

Ekin Gören proposed another phrasing, like ebennin a dadwennin "I went and I returned". I also thought of gwannen a dadwennen, but that may be a controversal usage of gwanna-.
Where do enta come from? And -nna? I thought that was purely Quenya, but it is maybe also Common Eldarin?
Also I have become doubtful concerning the proper use of en. I thought it meant "of the", singular, but is it more of a pure genitive/possessive marker?

Александр Запрягаев Apr 02, 2015 (21:11)

+Hjalmar Holm Purely conjectures, of course. As David Salo and Ryszard Derdzinski both suggest, S. ennas <> Q. enta-sse definitely implies the existence of the set of demonstrative 'adjectives' sinā-tanā-entā even at Common Eldarin stage. In 'Quendi and Eldar' Tolkien confirms at least allative to be an ancient form, though as I see now in the original source, he states the primitive allative to be -da -> -na -> -nna in Q. instead and hence -da -> -d in S., so rather "ennad a dassed" instead?

I also considered using gwanna-. Of course, there is always the trivial "gwannad a dandoled" without any further complications ('Narn e-Berian Gwenniel a Dandúliel', hm?). But I suppose Sindarin is strong enough to form complicated adverbs and prepositions by prefixation and suffixation; if we have godref 'through together', why can't we have dassed 'back again'?

Concerning 'en', I guess we need an explicit possessive (so it is both in Quenya and English). I agree it's not the best choice (cf. Narn e-Dant Gondolin, where it clearly indicates the topic vs. Pennas Silevril where the same idea is represented by mere postposition). So, we have two (and presumably three, also o(h)) ideas how to represent topic, but none of the authorship. Maybe, just rephrase? "Pennas en-Gwannad a Dandoled na Pherian Trenarn"?

Hjalmar Holm Apr 03, 2015 (10:46)

Having thought about it, I think both Narn perian and narn e-berian sounds a lot like tale about a hobbit. This tale is a sort of memoires. Pennas en-gwannad a dandoled na pherian trenarn sound like "Tale of the going and returning with the hobbit of the tale". Narn e-berian gwenniel a dandúliel sounds like "after having gone, and after having returned, the tale of the hobbit".

I like ennad and dassed but I don't want to use neo-words in the title; there will be enough of them in the text anyhow.

Александр Запрягаев Apr 03, 2015 (18:59)

+Hjalmar Holm I made it analogically to attested Quenya examples. 'Nan' is thought to represent among others instrumental meaning, which is how Q. participle phrases are rendered. 'Trenarn' was supposed to be past participle "recounted"; you may use 'trenarnen' instead to avoid possible misunderstanding.

Hjalmar Holm Apr 05, 2015 (23:32)

+Александр Запрягаев Maybe a mix of ideas, Gwenniel a Dandúliel, Pennas na Pherian

Александр Запрягаев Apr 06, 2015 (14:35)

+Hjalmar Holm That would be misuse of prepositions. "Gwannad a Dandoled: Narn perian" then. But does this particular rendering of the title happen anywhere except the movies? The title from the book is an interesting challenge, though. I'll try that.

Hjalmar Holm Apr 06, 2015 (15:02)

Right! I Berian, egor Ennad a Dassed would be the closest to the book (desirable, but not necessary), but as I said, reconstructions already in the title might be a bit to far. It is, of course, the book I'm translating, not the films :-)

Hjalmar Holm Apr 06, 2015 (15:04)

My until-I-find-something-better title is simply Narn Perian.