Tamas Ferencz Apr 04, 2018 (14:51)

What do you suggest for 'move, shift' (transitive)? Rúma- appears to be intransitive, and it is too specific for large and heavy things.
Strictly speaking menta- does mean "cause to go" but implies a direction so again too specific.
Even the EQ lev- which many neoQuenyaists like and use is intransitive.

Tamas Ferencz Apr 04, 2018 (14:56)

It is of course possible that there is no generic word to mean "move something" but depending on the situation a specific verb is to be used, like nir- or kol- or tuk-.

Robert Reynolds Apr 04, 2018 (15:18)

+Tamas Ferencz That is indeed possible, as with location verbs such as har-, oia-, mar-, tar-, arta.

Paul Strack Apr 05, 2018 (08:22)

Why can’t rúma- be used transitively? One of its glosses, “heave” is definitely transitive in English.

Tamas Ferencz Apr 05, 2018 (10:19)

+Paul Strack according to it can be transitive and intransitive, so you may be right, but the "(of heavy things)" part of the gloss suggests to me that it's the heavy things that do the heaving, and not they are heaved. But I may be mistaken. - Dictionary by Merriam-Webster: America's most-trusted online dictionary

Paul Strack Apr 05, 2018 (16:03)

You could be right, but just because Tolkien uses the verb only intransitively in the Markiya poem doesn’t mean it is exclusively transitive. It could be that the intransitive use it actually reflexive (heave yourself).

Björn Fromén Apr 06, 2018 (01:49)

Speculatively, rúma could be the continuous infinitive of a root verb *rum-, just like círa from cir- in the same source. If so, an exclusively transitive derivative *runta- < *rum-tā would be a possibility.

Paul Strack Apr 06, 2018 (03:24)

+Björn Fromén That’s possible, but its active participle seems to be rúmala not rumila. However, the root could be RUM and your ultimate conclusion would remain valid.

Björn Fromén Apr 07, 2018 (00:46)

+Paul Strack Given that rúma is a continuative form, I take it that rúmala must be a continuative participle corresponding to the Sindarin participles in -ol (e.g. úgarol, PE 17:144), whereas *rumila would be an aorist participle (as carila, PE 22:155).

Paul Strack Apr 07, 2018 (01:41)

+Björn Fromén Hmm. In the footnotes rúma- is written in a way that implies this is an infinitive form. I’ve never considered the possibility that it might be a continuous present. That’s a pretty plausible theory. I need to think on it a bit.

Björn Fromén Apr 08, 2018 (01:25)

I don't doubt that rúma (in man hlaruva...undume rúma) is an infinitive. But is it a general (aorist) infintive or, as the long root vowel seems to suggest, a continuous infinitive like cára ("(to) be making", PE 22:100) and círa (*'be sailing')?