PFgSQyJoiqy — G+ LoME Archive

Tamas Ferencz Dec 31, 2017 (11:48)

+Ицхак Пензев

Yitzik, your latest post and list of words has inspired me to start something similar (and I do not want to hijack your dictionary or anything, I will still contribute to that, or the two be combined or whatever), so I have searched the net for the list of the 1000 most common words of the English language and created a wordlist out of it. Let's see to how many of them we can assign a NeoQuenya equivalent!
The document is linked below and is editable. Please feel free to share it in the FB chat page so that others can contribute if they are up for it.
This would also provide an opportunity for some interesting statistics, to see what percentage of the 1000 has an attested (or readily derivable) equivalent, i.e. how "modern" or "relevant" the attested vocabulary is.

UPDATE
The link below now points to the new, spreadsheet version of the document. Please add your contributions to this one - I have disabled sharing on the old version.
Thank you +Robert Reynolds and +Severin Zahler for the conversion!

Everyone Please use the spreadsheet version to make your contributions, not the old .doc version - use the link in this updated post. +Andre Polykanine +Łukasz Szkołuda

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ExGnWkCLT4dXYGZX3UOjd75uST5H2cnsZE_Dm3be_Tc/edit#gid=0

Tamas Ferencz Dec 31, 2017 (11:50)

Apropos: the list is from here: https://www.ef.co.uk/english-resources/english-vocabulary/top-1000-words/

Ицхак Пензев Dec 31, 2017 (11:58)

+Tamas Ferencz I think we can go in parallel mode, and then combine the lists. Btw, the document is not mine, I am only an assembler. Most of the content is from Lukasz (Orondil).

Александр Запрягаев Dec 31, 2017 (15:14)

By the way: 'about' is pa with the short vowel; the long one is 'above but touching'.

Ицхак Пензев Dec 31, 2017 (15:26)

+Tamas Ferencz btw, I thought we came to agreemnet that "adaptation" has higher priority than derivation, didn't we?

Tamas Ferencz Dec 31, 2017 (15:49)

+Александр Запрягаев thx indeed - feel free to correct in the doc

Tamas Ferencz Dec 31, 2017 (15:49)

+Ицхак Пензев and I have reordered the hierarchy accordingly

Tamas Ferencz Dec 31, 2017 (15:52)

+Tamas Ferencz I mean I think derivation from late attested words (as opposed to roots) should have priority over adoption of early words. By derivation I mean creating nouns/adjectives from verbs using attested suffixes etc.

Leonard W. Dec 31, 2017 (16:27)

Please, please consider Google Spreadsheets instead! :) It would make it so much easier to import.

Tamas Ferencz Dec 31, 2017 (16:37)

+Leonard W. if I can find a way to convert it...

Robert Reynolds Dec 31, 2017 (17:06)

+Tamas Ferencz +Leonard W. I agree and will try the conversion now...

Robert Reynolds Dec 31, 2017 (17:51)

This is a very basic version: we have to come up with a consistent structure for the Quenya translations, references, etc. However, this may be a start: docs.google.com - 1000 most common words in English and their Quenya/NeoQuenya/KoireaQuenya/Atanquesta equivalents

Tamas Ferencz Dec 31, 2017 (18:07)

+Robert Reynolds hantan! Maira

Robert Reynolds Dec 31, 2017 (18:16)

+Tamas Ferencz If the spreadsheet looks like the direction we want to go in, you should disable editing on the original document so that we don't develop conflicts. You may also want to update the top-level post.

Severin Zahler Jan 01, 2018 (01:52)

Awesome, love the idea :D I allowed myself to bring some more structure to the spreadsheet and divide the bits of information into multiple columns, makes it a lot more readable imo, hope noone dislikes it :S

Robert Reynolds Jan 01, 2018 (02:05)

+Severin Zahler Speaking for myself: on the contrary, I actively like it very much. Your improvements on my rough port have indeed provided proper structure and clear formatting and should help to keep it readable as it grows. Hantanyel :)

Ицхак Пензев Jan 01, 2018 (13:54)

Here is the objection by David Salo (made in the FB Quenya Chat "Quenya Nyatil):
I'm curious as to who determined this "hierarchy of methods" and on what principles it is based. It seems to me like it would lead to some rather paradoxical results.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 01, 2018 (15:00)

+Ицхак Пензев just as each and every neologism anyone makes, the hierarchy is up for debate. That's the whole point of these discussions, to try to agree on an approach that is acceptable to most, or ideally everyone. I would very much like to hear what paradoxical things David has in mind, becuse he may have a point I cannot see yet.

Ицхак Пензев Jan 01, 2018 (17:10)

+Tamas Ferencz I clearly understand what you mean, I just don't want to be a "brocken phone", come and talk to David directly at the FB.

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Jan 01, 2018 (21:18)

Regarding "customer" : The closest expression I can think up at the moment is [*mancálëa] *veuyano/veutano/veulo (a [commercially] served person).

Tamas Ferencz Jan 02, 2018 (09:46)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ I keep thinking that word somehow requires a construction with o- or as- indicating someone who is a party in a deal/trade/matter; I am probably influenced by Hungarian ügyfél where ügy is "affair, deal, matter" and fél is "half" (as in "the other half partaking in the matter"). *omankaro? *armankaro?

Tamas Ferencz Jan 02, 2018 (11:41)

For "chance": something from EK/KES? a compound with ke- as a prefix similar to kenasta, kenai? *kenaitie? *quienwa? *ketulma?

Robert Reynolds Jan 06, 2018 (18:28)

Update: as of now, of the first 384 English words, 217 have Quenya translations. Some of those entries have yet to be made, so the actual fraction of those E words with relatively straightforward Q translations is higher. Also, of course, many of those E words have several or many Q translations. This seems promising.

Robert Reynolds Jan 17, 2018 (16:40)

We’re up to 405 entries with Q translations. 🙂

Tamas Ferencz Jan 17, 2018 (17:03)

+Robert Reynolds thanks for helping! and everyone else who contributes

Tamas Ferencz Jan 22, 2018 (16:47)

492 entries with at least one translation.

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Jan 28, 2018 (19:03)

Even after checking a couple of Google-found "1000 most common English words" pages, item #588 still remains a mystery to me. Assuming it's neither "net" nor "nut" misplaced, the middle graph must then obviously stand in for more than just one original letter.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 28, 2018 (23:44)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ not an error, it's actually n't, the contraction of not

Robert Reynolds Mar 08, 2018 (15:02)

So far, we’re at 695 entries: nearly 70%!

Tamas Ferencz Mar 08, 2018 (15:18)

+Robert Reynolds maira!

Robert Reynolds Mar 22, 2018 (14:47)

We’re up to 762 entries with at least one Quenya translation. The “easy” (attested, widespread neologism, etc.) words through ‘s’ are mainly covered; there are 99 English words left starting with ‘t-y’ (i.e. potentially easy words) (plus 47 in that range that already have entries). Of course, some English words currently only have Q translations covering some of their parts of speech or distinct senses, but this is solid progress.

Tamas Ferencz Mar 22, 2018 (15:23)

+Robert Reynolds that's amazing, I never thought we would get that far.

Robert Reynolds Mar 31, 2018 (13:35)

Someone has changed the formatting to use 36 point type. It appears that no content changes have been made since that changeover. Please share the rationale, as I have much trouble viewing the document now and may need to revert or alter the formatting change!

Tamas Ferencz Mar 31, 2018 (13:46)

+Robert Reynolds wasn't me - have changed it to a smaller point size; feel free to punch it around

Robert Reynolds Mar 31, 2018 (14:01)

+Tamas Ferencz Your reformat looks good to me. Thanks.

Tamas Ferencz May 11, 2018 (18:45)

Currently 784 entries have at least a tentative translation.

Robert Reynolds May 21, 2018 (14:23)

Completion of “straightforward” translations!! 860 entries have at least one tentative translation, so only 140 of the 1000 most used English words currently have no Quenya translation here. Some Q translations may not encompass all E meanings, but also many of the remaining E words may have reasonable NQ constructs or the like. Some such work has already been done. Thank you to all who have contributed and/or done the research/study necessary to have made this possible!

Tamas Ferencz May 21, 2018 (15:06)

+Robert Reynolds that is fantastic - when I started this experiment I did not expect such a strong outcome - this demonstrates that Quenya, although undoubtedly has gaps, nevertheless possesses a sound base vocabulary.
Perhaps now we could start taking the untranslated words one by one and see if we can come up with good neologisms for them.

Robert Reynolds May 22, 2018 (14:32)

+Tamas Ferencz That sounds reasonable to attempt. The results would be useful for regular usage as well as this particular study.

Tamas Ferencz May 22, 2018 (14:35)

+Robert Reynolds OK. Let's start in a new thread though - or separate posts per word, with a +#1000words hashtag maybe.

Robert Reynolds May 22, 2018 (14:36)

+Tamas Ferencz Good idea. This one has been going for nearly half a year. That hashtag will keep the posts connected. 🙂

Leonard W. May 28, 2018 (08:50)

Woohoo! I will look into importing at least the first column (attested) of this spreadsheet to Parf Edhellen, possibly some of the others too.

Great job everyone!

Tamas Ferencz May 31, 2018 (13:52)

+Leonard W. have a good look when you import, because some of the English words have several possible meanings in Quenya, so you would have to import more than just the first column

Damien Bador Jun 18, 2018 (13:04)

+Tamas Ferencz Concerning your comment: "I mean I think derivation from late attested words (as opposed to roots) should have priority over adoption of early words", I'm inclined to disagree somewhat.

It's only in the case where the earlier word has been clearly rejected, superseded by a new meaning or a new derivation that I would agree to derivation being better.

We have too many examples of Tolkien picking a very old invention of his in a very late text to discard straight away the old Qenya words. And we have also many examples of Tolkien stating that a specific root has no derivative in a specific language, and giving similar exceptions to regular derivation rules to restrict neologisms to the very strict minimum. I don't like double-guessing Tolkien, unless I really have no other choice.

Tamas Ferencz Jun 18, 2018 (19:08)

+Damien Bador when I say derivation, I mean the use of formative suffixes that appear to be productive. I prefer to fully embrace the agglutinative aspect of the language before turning to early words. I don't disregard them at all however.

Damien Bador Jun 18, 2018 (21:24)

+Tamas Ferencz I think I better understand what you meant, Tamas. Definitely, using productive affixes is one of the best way I can think of forming neologisms.

However, I wouldn't necessarily put Early Qenya words behind such inventions. It would be a case-by-case basis, depending on the likelihood of the earlier words to be still valid within Tolkien's later conception.

Tamas Ferencz Jun 18, 2018 (21:29)

+Damien Bador agreed!