PrgkpVhkMRq — G+ LoME Archive

Matt Dinse Aug 10, 2014 (03:47)

"still, quiet" in Sindarin:

Fiona suggests *pell from QL qilda (cp. PE21's qilir), but I might like something a bit later that might not clash with √KWEL. What kind of forms would we get from VT45:29's √LUR- and VT44:35's √SIB?

In Quenya I anticipate an adj. *síva to go along with noun síve; in Sindarin the two would likely merge into *sîf ? sîw ? (Phonology help appreciated). Or would -a in sîbâ make adjectival *sêf/w? Not sure if that affects long i as well. A longer *síven might be nice, too, cp. t/dínen.

For √LUR- *lorn would clash with the attested noun; perhaps something with -ui, -eb, -en? lurui, loreb, loren etc. The first has the bonus of not being confused with a relation of laur, lawar.

Lőrinczi Gábor Aug 10, 2014 (12:41)

But why do you want to create a NA word for "still, quiet" if we have at least two attested equivalents (t(/dínen), tîn)?

Can you recall the first principle of VinQuettaParma? :)

Matt Dinse Aug 10, 2014 (16:25)

Well, "silent" is not quite "quiet" - it seems (to me anyway) to be a more robust version where there is no sound, at all, whereas quiet can have some (but little). Similar, but not identical.

And I just meant to put them as an alternative on the *pell entry.

Lőrinczi Gábor Aug 10, 2014 (17:44)

And what about úbed?

Roman Rausch Aug 10, 2014 (18:31)

How is it in other languages? I can say that German makes this distinction as well (leise/still), although Russian and Japanese don't - the same word (тихий/shizuka) can mean 'little sound' and 'no sound at all'. On the other hand, all three have a verb for 'to remain silent, to say nothing'.
There is no separate word 'silent' in the QL beside qilda, but Tolkien's adamant glossing of t/dínen as 'silent' and the other bunch of roots as 'quiet (still, calm, rest)' may suggest that he intended a differentiation..

In any case, SIB- would yield *sîw, compare khīmā > hîw.

Lőrinczi Gábor Aug 10, 2014 (20:10)

Hungarian makes no distinction either, csendes means both "silent" and "quiet".

Matt Dinse Aug 11, 2014 (02:56)

Thanks for *sîw, Roman. I had thought of hríve and rhîw, but nef and Nivrost were distracting me. Or is it a final vs. medial differentiation, i.e. rhaw but rhovan? Though Q&E mentions loss of final V after au, u. I really need to brush up on my Sindarin phonology. Perhaps rereading the notes on Orome/Araw will be useful, unless v / bh are treated differently than v / mh.

Roman Rausch Aug 11, 2014 (21:32)

Sure, in the middle of the word vowel mutation is absent, long vowels may get shortened (see the discussion of Novrod vs. naw in Q&E) and things like that.
I don't think that b and m behave differently, and with āb/ām the result is always —aw. However, I was too hasty with īb/īm, since we also have nîf < nībe and îf < īb-.
And do we actually know the root of hríve/rhîw? It might in fact be *SRIW-.

Now that reminds me of something... Oh yes, we had this discussion a year ago (so I'm not completely senile yet, but getting there..):
https://plus.google.com/109622024274950606239/posts/aga44eAEabA

Fiona Jallings Aug 12, 2014 (02:01)

I chose qilda>*pell supposing the root KWIL which doesn't have any competition, as far as I know. I put in the alternates the words for "Silence" even though they only overlap in meaning in a few areas. I made *pell because it doesn't just refer to sound, but movement as well. Qilda's gloss is given as "quiet, hushed, still" after all, like a body of water that had been churning and frothing, now still as a plane of glass - that sort of image comes to mind when I think of the meaning of this word.