Post QbBdpouBAKE

Tamas Ferencz Jan 07, 2017 (12:50)

In his Outline of Phonetic Development, on page 58 of PE19 Tolkien introduces the somewhat unexpected (for me) compound word tálgárta "high boot", a compound of the well known tál "foot" and gárta "hide, 'leather'" (hitherto unknown). What can we make of this word? It is not entirely clear for me from the text which stage of Quenya this compound is from; though item (e) on top of p46 confirms that medial lg remains lg in Parmaquesta (but turns to ll in Lindarin); it does not say what happens in Tarquesta and later.
So assuming that the word is allowed to stand (is it?), can we do anything with that second element? Would it, as a standalone word "leather", take the shape *gárta => *ʒárta => arta? And if, say, I'd combine it with "hand" to get "glove", would it be *mágárta => *máʒárta => *marta? See (c) (iii) on p32 saying that between identical vowels medially g => ʒ => vowel contraction, otherwise g => ʒ => y. Or should we imagine a scenario where *máʒárta would intentionally be turned to *máyárta to avoid a clash with the adjective marta?
What do you think?

Александр Запрягаев Jan 07, 2017 (13:03)

mágárta > márta with retention, for me. Any chance separately HAR and harta supposed?

Tamas Ferencz Jan 07, 2017 (13:52)

+Александр Запрягаев I cannot find any suggestion for that

Andre Polykanine Jan 07, 2017 (14:22)

For me, both márta with a long á and máyarta seem plausible. Do I understand correctly that in (nowadays) Quenya lg is not possible? It seems, there is no tengwa for G or Lg.

Andre Polykanine Jan 07, 2017 (14:23)

And one more thing: it seems, long vowel + two consonants are very seldom in Quenya, it seems.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 07, 2017 (14:31)

Well as the section in question deals with stress, it is possible that the accents in this case denote primary and secondary stress (as the sentence specifically mentions that two adjacent syllables were never stressed except in compounds if the word was still felt to be a loose compound) and not vowel length.. So it's possible that the word is *talgarta?

Tamas Ferencz Jan 07, 2017 (15:09)

+Andre Polykanine but not unheard of, cf. mánta etc.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 07, 2017 (16:20)

In the later revision of the text on p 93 Tolkien states that "The products of rg, lg; rgw, lgw are in (N) TQ [i.e. in Tarquesta spoken by the Noldor in Beleriand who'd already adopted Sindarin as daily tongue] rr, ll...; rw, lw; in Vanyarin rg, lg, rw, lw."

There's also the interesting statement that "As there was no letter for separate g, ... , this V. rg, lg was spelt rñ, lñ"

Tamas Ferencz Jan 11, 2017 (14:04)

In analogy of tálgárta, perhaps one could devise words like *telkolanne "trousers, pants, lit. leg-cloth" or *telkoróta "trousers, lit. leg-tube, cf. Eng. hose"