G+ LoME Archive
Nov 09, 2017 (03:40)
Andanéya, harunya quente nin quenta:
Roquen atta yestat sé lár atta. Ilya roquen norta i exenna min lár ilya lúmesse. Pí yesta min roquende ar vile i exenna; íre anyas ilya roquen, nanwenis i exenna arta. I pí vile lár atta ilya lúmesse. Íre i roqueni omentat i endesse, manóte lári i pí ivíliéva?
I pí vile i minya roquello i atteanna mi neldesta atta min lúmeo: lan vilis i attea roquenna, tana roquen nortea senna. Ter tana lúme vilis lári min ta neldesta. Vilis i attea roquello i minyanna mi neldesta atta neldesta atto min lúmeo ambe: i minya roquen norteane lan vilis. Sí ivílies lári min ta neldesta ta nerestar canta. Tana nonwe same únotie tyeller. Ea fintale lá carien tana nonwe: i roqueni omentat pó min lúme ar i pí mene lár atta ilya lúmesse; etta ivílies lár atta.
Atan menne omentienna *napanqueno ar cestane ta min imíca ten ye náne ammára napanien. I *napanquen sanne lintie ar hanquente “lár atta”. I atan quente “Ai: istal i fintale! Rimbe quelli ricir care i nonwe.” I *napanquen quente “Ma fintale? Carnen i nonwe.”
A long time ago, my grandfather told me a story:
Two riders begin at two leagues. Each rider rides at the other one league per hour. An insect starts at one rider and flies to the other; when it reaches each rider, it goes back to the other and so on. The insect flies two leagues per hour. When the riders meet in the center, how many leagues will the insect have flown?
The insect flies from the first rider to the second in two thirds of one hour: while it flies to the second rider, that rider is riding toward it. During that time it flies one and one third leagues. It flies from the second rider to the first in two thirds of two thirds of one hour more: the first rider was riding as it flew. Now it has flown one and one third and four ninths leagues. That calculation has infinite steps. There is a trick to not do that calculation: the riders meet after one hour and the insect travels two leagues per hour; therefore it has flown two leagues.
A man went to a conference of mathematicians and asked that to one of them who was very good at adding. The mathematician thought quickly and answered “two leagues”. The man said “Wow: you know the trick! Many persons try to do the calculation.” The mathematician said “What trick? I did the calculation.”
er i exe
and similar 'one another, each other (of persons or things)'
min lár ilya lúmesse
and similar 'one league per hour, (lit.) one league in each hour'
future perfect 'will have flown'
mi neldesta atta min lúmeo
and similar: 'in two thirds of one hour'
'in that time, during that time' (as opposed to 'at that time')
min ta neldesta
'one and a third, one plus a third'
'uncounted steps' used for 'infinite steps' (math note: the infinite sum is actually "countable" in the technical math usage of that word)
dative gerund of
'for not doing, in order to not do'
'mathematician, (lit. adding-person)' (far from ideal as mathematics is primarily about deductive logic far beyond just addition; this may better fit 'accountant' or similar)
min imíca ten
'to one of (lit. among) them'
strong past of
'quickly' used instead of 'briefly'
partitive plural of
'many persons', used instead of 'most persons'
minor coincidental irony, noticed while deciding how to say 'mathematician':
'of wise persons' contains English 'moron'
The version that my grandfather literally told had bicycles instead of riders. It used miles instead of leagues with different distances and speeds and specific hours instead of arbitrary time units; the math works as long as a
is the same time unit in each usage here.
throughout, double corrected
yestat lár atta er i exello
yestat sé lár atta
to remove Anglicism, corrected
ter tana lúme
, fixed math typo (
neldesta atta neldesta atto lá nerestar tolto!
), reordered several numbers and sums to put them after the noun instead of before, updated
Nov 09, 2017 (04:36)
Very good. I would use min instead of er, though.
Nov 09, 2017 (07:08)
Very good. Plural of
Nov 09, 2017 (09:08)
Interesting choice of text!
"yestat lár atta er i exello" - I feel 'start two miles from" is an Anglicism, for clarity I would add a preposition line
yestat sé lár atta
"start at two miles"
vile i minya roquello i atteallo: I think you meant
Nov 09, 2017 (09:56)
: I think talume is an adverb ("at that time, then") and in my view cannot have a preposition, you would need to express this in three words:
mi ta lúme
ter ta lúme
Nov 09, 2017 (10:03)
I wonder if
could be a viable neoloism as an inceptive form of
to express "start, get off, commence to go" ( as in Hungarian
Nov 09, 2017 (10:08)
Nov 09, 2017 (14:28)
Thank you all! I enjoyed writing this: my grandfather died just over three years ago and this is one of the ways by which I remember him.
Are there good resources for Tolkien's later thoughts on numbers? I don't have the original sources cited on Eldamo for them and I learned most of what I know from Helge Fauskanger's excellent, in-depth course that was out-of-date even then.
seems an interesting possibility. I too recall the section on inceptives like
in PE22. It notes that the consonant is properly the inceptive part and gives
as one of the favored combinations for inception. Another related possibility is
in analogy with
on the second page, given as always having inceptive force.
Nov 09, 2017 (14:40)
I think the most relevant and recent writings on numbers are the ones in VT47/48/49, on fingers and numerals
Nov 09, 2017 (22:18)
thank you for helping, I didn't have my hands (no pun intended) on the VT issues.
Nov 10, 2017 (16:28)
I just ordered the collected VT41-50 volume: its price is actually very reasonable. I've previously only had PE22 of Tolkien's specifically linguistic work, so this should be an adventure!
Nov 10, 2017 (16:47)
I am sure you'll enjoy them!
Nov 15, 2017 (18:37)
Would onótimo 'reckoner' be plausible for mathematician?
Nov 15, 2017 (19:46)
why not. Or, what about
Nov 15, 2017 (23:05)
Intriguing: especially as 'reckon' can mean 'think' or 'work out' for more than just numbers. Those ideas got me thinking (
tane nówi tyarner ni *sanu
). I went through the Ancient Greek etymology of 'mathematics' and it basically gives 'to learn' + result noun suffix + general adjective from noun suffix, so 'of or pertaining to knowledge (lit. result of learning)' but that seems rather general. One more specific possibility combining reckoning and knowledge is
'loremaster of reckoning' modeled after
'Loremasters of Tongues, *linguists'.
Nov 15, 2017 (23:48)
"master of numbers"
Nov 15, 2017 (23:50)
Nov 16, 2017 (01:59)
I love master of numbers
Nov 16, 2017 (13:09)
It's aesthetically pleasant to have such variety and diversity of choices, depending on one's intended tone and other such factors. For instance, Master/Devotee of Numbers/Reckoning/Calculating sounds like an honorific or other title to me and yet could also be used for the profession.