G+ LoME Archive
Kevin B Walsh
Jan Sorondil Slaný
Jul 23, 2014 (09:14)
'agree', 'approve', 'consent to' in Q?
*olav- 'yield mutually'?
Jul 23, 2014 (15:57)
Kevin B Walsh
well, now that you mention it, *olav-
be interpreted as a verb for certain sexual activities, but hey, at least NeoQuenya writers could come up with some nice innuendos and jokes based on that:)
I don't think length of a word is an issue, this is a semi-agglutinating language after all, some length is expected. I also was toying with
as a prefix, perhaps shortened to
? but then the latter would be rather affected by the following consonant, so maybe not the best option. Also,
rather carries a reflexive meaning, so maybe not after all.
In Hungarian, the verbs corresponding to 'agree', 'consent' contain 'one' i.e. 'one and the same', so i was also thinking about using
as a compounding prefix (as in uni-).
Jul 23, 2014 (16:15)
'Agree' could as well be expressed by something like
nas mára yúyon
'it appeals to both', if need be.
Jul 23, 2014 (19:18)
Well, his works may be sexless, but that did not prevent him from inventing words for penis, vagina, semen, or copulation for his Qenya or Gnomish lexicons!
And at any rate people are inventive, I am sure in time there'll be plenty of kennings and slang words for sex:)
I use etymonline frequently, it is very useful.
Jul 24, 2014 (03:52)
I know about vagina, coitus, copulate, and fuck (huch, huith, hug-, huitha- and pukta)... but I wasn't aware of the words for penis or semen. Where can I find these words?
Jul 24, 2014 (04:50)
Found "semen" in Gnomish - gwaith (PE11:44)... I dunno... maybe kinda useable. It could be connected to /WEG/ after all. We'd have to retrace its history.
I couldn't find the word for "penis" though.
Jul 24, 2014 (09:46)
We actually have two words for 'penis'. The form
[later > *puntil?] is given in the same group as
Then there is
Qenya Word Lists
in PE16:135; this is modestly glossed as 'teors' i.e. Old English for penis. PE13:146 has N
gwibi_as its equivalent, all coming from _*wikw-
later appears as 'manhood, vigour' in the Etymologies, which is really just a eufemism...
Jul 24, 2014 (10:22)
Hehehe, the metaphor for a dick is a man's health. And Tolkien's word for Vagina means something along the lines of "where you stick it". We'll have to come up with some better euphemisms for genitalia, lol.
I don't have a copy of PE16, alas.
Jul 24, 2014 (11:43)
minna i gîl fastui
Jul 24, 2014 (11:45)
nasta i amlug ross
nasta i russa lóke
Jul 24, 2014 (22:41)
BTW, I've already turned the Early Noldorin words for sex into Neo-Sindarin (did that a while ago, actually.) I based them on the ancient root that I reconstructed for them: PUK(HU). They are: poch = vagina, puith = coitus, pog- = have sex, puitha- = have sex with. With these we could make the following Quenya terms: puho = vagina, puhta = coitus, puc- = have sex, puhta- have sex with.
Jul 26, 2014 (04:56)
We might instead get
(from *pukku, PE13:163).
Jul 27, 2014 (11:52)
so the ancient stem is PUK(KU) instead.
Jul 28, 2014 (02:26)
The root is just *PUK-, the doubling is a strengthening process (
) during derivation (same with
from ROK-, it's not really a suffix
I agree about
. In Sindarin, it would be
- there is no
to cause a-umlaut.
Now for Tamas to fill in some saucy example sentences. :-)
Jul 29, 2014 (01:13)
?might? also be possible, as there are some Sindarin examples where u > o even without a-umlaut: it seems following-a is not the only mechanic for u > o (cf. VT44:25). As for examples, perhaps
Jul 29, 2014 (05:04)
There's also /orch/ from URUK... hmmm. A dissimilation of the first U from the second? or Perhaps they both went down... need to compare this with other double U roots.
Jul 29, 2014 (05:36)
KUNDU - cund
KURÚM - crum
/mbundu/ - bund
SÚLUK - solch (a-affection, /sulka/ was an earlier form)
TULUK - tolog (an adjective, Was /tuluka/ an earlier form?)
TUMPU - tump
/tundu/ - tund
TURÚM - trum
UGU/UMU - um, ú-
ULU - Ulu, oll (a-affection from ulda)
ÚLUG/ÚLGU - ulund, ul-
USUK - osp
Then compare with mono-syllable verbs U>O:
NUT - nud-
SUK - sog-
TUK - tog-
TUL - tol-
It seems more like a sporadic change in Noldorin.
Jul 29, 2014 (11:27)
Okay, so the full set of rules would look like that:
can also bring those high vowels down, clearly seen in
Orch is said to be either from _urkō
- Nasals and labials prevent the lowering of
(see examples above).
- Sequences of two short
's in a row (where the second one isn't lost in a final syllable) may lower, it seems, as in
, perhaps in
. This should also explain
with the second vowel causing lenition and being lost later. The change doesn't happen in
- The u-verbs are peculiar. One could assume that there is analogical levelling from certain forms, like the 3rd singular
> *tol(e)_ >
affecting the whole paradigm. However, for some reason it doesn't happen to i-verbs! We have
(okay, maybe the i-verbs are the peculiar ones).
In any case, what's clear is that a final high vowel
doesn't cause lowering (the former in plurals).
As a model for
one could take
'fox' (VT41:10), for example.
Jul 30, 2014 (05:38)
That clarified a lot; thanks Roman!
Aug 08, 2014 (04:38)
Alright, continuing this for "penis" - "puntil" in Neo-Quenya, "punnol" as the Sindarin cognate? Or perhaps "pynnil"?
Aug 09, 2014 (01:06)
I'm not quite sure how one gets
from PU(HU) in QL, perhaps by assimilation to the dental
. Oddly though,
appears with N-roots as well, as
'lyre' < QINI-, perhaps by epenthesis
(?). It might also be a suffix
In any event, things are slightly different at later stages where we have, for example,
'pin, brooch' (TAK-). Based on that and a hypothetical *PUK- (later Primitive Eldarin lacks fricatives) I would adapt the word as Q.
, S. _*puchl, *puchol_.
sounds so diminutive, I'd rather have a
But as already mentioned, one could instead use N.
from PE13:162 (it's a slightly later source) where the latter is almost identical to Etym's
Oct 03, 2014 (16:05)
I have just come across the Q verb
'eject, ejaculate', originally 'to cause liquids to spirt out' in PE14:66.
Oct 05, 2014 (20:44)
Add it to the list!
In Sindarin... based on
would that be
? Where does this particular Quenya H come from?
Oct 06, 2014 (00:17)
the root is
(with a circumflex under the i); in the same group the variant
can also be found, yielding Noldorin
Oct 09, 2014 (21:45)
Apparently, at that point
in Qenya (also evidenced by
ku̯apɪ̯a- > qapta-
'to flap' on the same page; I can't think of later examples of
to compare). If we keep the primitive form, it would presumably become
Jan Sorondil Slaný
Jan 03, 2015 (19:56)
Returning to the original topic, I share my piece. Helge's wordlist gives
"to say no" (in the sense "to refuse to do something"). As far as I understand, we have the words
("no" denoting refusal to do something, negating an
("no", I guess this one is used to negate a
), and finally
("yes"). Based on the word
, I coined the words
("to say yes" i.e. "to agree", "to confirm", "to approve") and
("to deny", "to say something is not true").
is actually mentioned in Helge's wordlist with the meaning "to deny", but it is indicated as struck out.
Jan 03, 2015 (20:02)
I like the way of your thinking, however, I need to think deeper about *naquet-
Jan Sorondil Slaný
Jan 03, 2015 (20:09)
If you find the word unsuitable, please let me know. :-)