Post S1Se4pDrmm5

Tamas Ferencz Jul 23, 2014 (09:14)

'agree', 'approve', 'consent to' in Q?

*olav- 'yield mutually'?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 23, 2014 (15:57)

+Kevin B Walsh
well, now that you mention it, *olav- could be interpreted as a verb for certain sexual activities, but hey, at least NeoQuenya writers could come up with some nice innuendos and jokes based on that:)

I don't think length of a word is an issue, this is a semi-agglutinating language after all, some length is expected. I also was toying with imya- as a prefix, perhaps shortened to *im-? but then the latter would be rather affected by the following consonant, so maybe not the best option. Also, im- rather carries a reflexive meaning, so maybe not after all.
In Hungarian, the verbs corresponding to 'agree', 'consent' contain 'one' i.e. 'one and the same', so i was also thinking about using min(e) or er(e) as a compounding prefix (as in uni-).

Tamas Ferencz Jul 23, 2014 (16:15)

'Agree' could as well be expressed by something like nas mára yúyon 'it appeals to both', if need be.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 23, 2014 (19:18)

Well, his works may be sexless, but that did not prevent him from inventing words for penis, vagina, semen, or copulation for his Qenya or Gnomish lexicons!
And at any rate people are inventive, I am sure in time there'll be plenty of kennings and slang words for sex:)

I use etymonline frequently, it is very useful.

Fiona Jallings Jul 24, 2014 (03:52)

I know about vagina, coitus, copulate, and fuck (huch, huith, hug-, huitha- and pukta)... but I wasn't aware of the words for penis or semen. Where can I find these words?

Fiona Jallings Jul 24, 2014 (04:50)

Found "semen" in Gnomish - gwaith (PE11:44)... I dunno... maybe kinda useable. It could be connected to /WEG/ after all. We'd have to retrace its history.

I couldn't find the word for "penis" though.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 24, 2014 (09:46)

We actually have two words for 'penis'. The form puntl [later > *puntil?] is given in the same group as pukta- in QL.
Then there is vie in Qenya Word Lists in PE16:135; this is modestly glossed as 'teors' i.e. Old English for penis. PE13:146 has N gwib  plral gwibi_as its equivalent, all coming from _*wikw- Vie later appears as 'manhood, vigour' in the Etymologies, which is really just a eufemism...

Fiona Jallings Jul 24, 2014 (10:22)

Hehehe, the metaphor for a dick is a man's health. And Tolkien's word for Vagina means something along the lines of "where you stick it". We'll have to come up with some better euphemisms for genitalia, lol.

I don't have a copy of PE16, alas.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 24, 2014 (11:43)

+Fiona Jallings
minna i gîl fastui? :)

Tamas Ferencz Jul 24, 2014 (11:45)

nasta i amlug ross

nasta i russa lóke

Fiona Jallings Jul 24, 2014 (22:41)

pffffff hehehee
BTW, I've already turned the Early Noldorin words for sex into Neo-Sindarin (did that a while ago, actually.) I based them on the ancient root that I reconstructed for them: PUK(HU). They are: poch = vagina, puith = coitus, pog- = have sex, puitha- = have sex with. With these we could make the following Quenya terms: puho = vagina, puhta = coitus, puc- = have sex, puhta- have sex with.

Matt Dinse Jul 26, 2014 (04:56)

We might instead get pucco (from *pukku, PE13:163).

Fiona Jallings Jul 27, 2014 (11:52)

so the ancient stem is PUK(KU) instead.

Roman Rausch Jul 28, 2014 (02:26)

The root is just *PUK-, the doubling is a strengthening process (antoryame) during derivation (same with rokko, roch from ROK-, it's not really a suffix ??-ko or anything).
I agree about *pukko. In Sindarin, it would be *puch - there is no a to cause a-umlaut.

Now for Tamas to fill in some saucy example sentences. :-)

Matt Dinse Jul 29, 2014 (01:13)

*poch ?might? also be possible, as there are some Sindarin examples where u > o even without a-umlaut: it seems following-a is not the only mechanic for u > o (cf. VT44:25). As for examples, perhaps oth- from UTHU?

Fiona Jallings Jul 29, 2014 (05:04)

There's also /orch/ from URUK... hmmm. A dissimilation of the first U from the second? or Perhaps they both went down... need to compare this with other double U roots.

Fiona Jallings Jul 29, 2014 (05:36)

From Noldorin:

KUNDU - cund
KURÚM - crum
/mbundu/ - bund
SÚLUK - solch (a-affection, /sulka/ was an earlier form)
TULUK - tolog (an adjective, Was /tuluka/ an earlier form?)
TUMPU - tump
/tundu/ - tund
TURÚM - trum
UGU/UMU - um, ú-
ULU - Ulu, oll (a-affection from ulda)
ÚLUG/ÚLGU - ulund, ul-
USUK - osp

Then compare with mono-syllable verbs U>O:
NUT - nud-
SUK - sog-
TUK - tog-
TUL - tol-

It seems more like a sporadic change in Noldorin.

Roman Rausch Jul 29, 2014 (11:27)

Okay, so the full set of rules would look like that:
- Final -ē, -ō can also bring those high vowels down, clearly seen in certh < kirtē and osp < uskwē. Orch is said to be either from _urkō or urkā.
- Nasals and labials prevent the lowering of u (see examples above).
- Sequences of two short u's in a row (where the second one isn't lost in a final syllable) may lower, it seems, as in gorog < guruk, perhaps in oroth, tolog. This should also explain oth-, originally *uthu- with the second vowel causing lenition and being lost later. The change doesn't happen in tulus, urug, though.
- The u-verbs are peculiar. One could assume that there is analogical levelling from certain forms, like the 3rd singular *tule > *tol(e)_ > tôl affecting the whole paradigm. However, for some reason it doesn't happen to i-verbs! We have tir- rather than **ter- (okay, maybe the i-verbs are the peculiar ones).

In any case, what's clear is that a final high vowel -i, -u doesn't cause lowering (the former in plurals).
As a model for *pukku > Q. *pukko, S. *puch one could take rusku- > Q. rusko, S. rusc 'fox' (VT41:10), for example.

Matt Dinse Jul 30, 2014 (05:38)

That clarified a lot; thanks Roman!

Fiona Jallings Aug 08, 2014 (04:38)

Alright, continuing this for "penis" - "puntil" in Neo-Quenya, "punnol" as the Sindarin cognate? Or perhaps "pynnil"?

Roman Rausch Aug 09, 2014 (01:06)

I'm not quite sure how one gets puntl from PU(HU) in QL, perhaps by assimilation to the dental l: *punχl > *punkl > puntl. Oddly though, —ntl appears with N-roots as well, as qintl 'lyre' < QINI-, perhaps by epenthesis nl > ntl (?). It might also be a suffix *—tḷ..
In any event, things are slightly different at later stages where we have, for example, tankla > Q. tankil, S. tachl, tachol 'pin, brooch' (TAK-). Based on that and a hypothetical *PUK- (later Primitive Eldarin lacks fricatives) I would adapt the word as Q. *punkil, S. _*puchl, *puchol_.

EDIT: Btw, *pynnil sounds so diminutive, I'd rather have a puchol. :-)

But as already mentioned, one could instead use N. gwî, Q./T. vie from PE13:162 (it's a slightly later source) where the latter is almost identical to Etym's vie 'manhood, vigour'.

Tamas Ferencz Oct 03, 2014 (16:05)

I have just come across the Q verb hapta- 'eject, ejaculate', originally 'to cause liquids to spirt out' in PE14:66.
Dirty JRR!

Fiona Jallings Oct 05, 2014 (20:44)

Add it to the list!
In Sindarin... based on leutha- would that be hautha-? Where does this particular Quenya H come from?

Tamas Ferencz Oct 06, 2014 (00:17)

+Fiona Jallings the root is skapia- (with a circumflex under the i); in the same group the variant skap- can also be found, yielding Noldorin hab- 'jump'.

Roman Rausch Oct 09, 2014 (21:45)

Apparently, at that point pɪ̯ becomes pt in Qenya (also evidenced by ku̯apɪ̯a- > qapta- 'to flap' on the same page; I can't think of later examples of pɪ̯ to compare). If we keep the primitive form, it would presumably become *he(i)bia- in Sindarin.

Jan Sorondil Slaný Jan 03, 2015 (19:56)

Returning to the original topic, I share my piece. Helge's wordlist gives váquet- "to say no" (in the sense "to refuse to do something"). As far as I understand, we have the words ("no" denoting refusal to do something, negating an intention), ("no", I guess this one is used to negate a statement), and finally ("yes"). Based on the word váquet-, I coined the words náquet- ("to say yes" i.e. "to agree", "to confirm", "to approve") and láquet- ("to deny", "to say something is not true"). Laquet- is actually mentioned in Helge's wordlist with the meaning "to deny", but it is indicated as struck out.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 03, 2015 (20:02)

+Jan Slaný I like the way of your thinking, however, I need to think deeper about *naquet- 

Jan Sorondil Slaný Jan 03, 2015 (20:09)

If you find the word unsuitable, please let me know. :-)