G+ LoME Archive
Post S6SovAg7qVV
Tamas Ferencz, Fiona Jallings, Young P, Discussion

Young P Mar 16, 2018 (09:24)

I'd like to ask your opinion on some info found in here (https://realelvish.net/pronunciation/sindarin/).

As far as I know, LH/HL is more like voiceless alveolar lateral approximants[l̥] than voiceless alveolar lateral fricatives[ɬ] (Welsh ll).

The latter is found in words like mallorn though.
http://www.elvish.org/Tengwestie/articles/Hostetter/sindll.phtml

And the recorded RH/HR sound has so much air or H sound that it sounds like two separate consonants. It should be simple trilled R without vibrating vocal cords in my opinion.

Tamas Ferencz Mar 16, 2018 (09:40)

I am sure +Fiona Jallings will elaborate on her pronunciation guide :)

Fiona Jallings Mar 16, 2018 (19:41)

For LL from LTH, I don't use /ɬɬ/ because that's not how it is described in LotR. I've elected to use LotR-era information rather than later information because I don't want to use stuff that contradicts information in LotR.

For the HR/RH parts - which set are you referring to? There's mine which use /ʀ/ and my roommate's which use /r̥/. He's not a linguist or an Elvish-enthusiast, so he had a lot of difficulty producing the sound.

Young P Mar 17, 2018 (17:51)

+Fiona Jallings Isn't /ʀ/ french R? Anyway, apparently it's a man's voice pronoucing RH/r̥/. I think it can be misleading.

My focus was not on LL from LTH. I'm saying "(LH) Pronounce it /ɬ/" this part seems not correct because Tolkien said in the Appendix that "L represents more or less the sound of English initial L, as in let. . . . LH represents this sound when voiceless (usually derived from initial sl-)." 'S' in 'sl-' is voiceless so it affects 'L' making it voiceless. If L is VOICED alveolar lateral APPROXIMANTS, LH should be VOICELESS alveolar lateral APPROXIMANTS/l̥/ not voiceless alveolar lateral fricatives/ɬ/ which is Welsh LL and sounds more or less similar to /ʃ/.

Though, I admit I'm not a linguist and not familar with /l̥/ sound. I'm not 100% sure about my argument but just want give some help, if possible, to your already wonderful work.

Fiona Jallings Mar 17, 2018 (19:34)

I must have gotten the video and the post mixed up. I use the French R because I was born with a bound tongue and it wasn't corrected until I was 14. Rolling Rs is REALLY difficult for me, and I have been trying to train my tongue to learn how for the past 17 years.

As for the LH, I picked up the habit from Hiswelókë.

Young P Mar 18, 2018 (03:49)

+Fiona Jallings I'm sorry but I get the feeling you keep talking about off-topic stuff. If you don't want to discuss these things you could say that you don't want to.

I don't want to be rude but if you teach people your habit you picked giving nothing to what's wrong and right, I'd say it's not right at all.

Fiona Jallings Mar 18, 2018 (04:42)

It's more that since I picked up that idea I hadn't thought about it - nothing had challenged it. I used to mark it as /l̥/ before I examined the way that Hiswelókë did their transcriptions, and since I designed my pronunciations to match the data in Hiswelókë, I hadn't thought about it since then, which was... 10 years ago? But going back over the source material, you're right, Hiswelókë made an error, and I copied that error.