Post SEFabLtRq8j

Ekin Gören Apr 13, 2016 (01:45)

PE22 offers a solution to spatio-temporal ambiguity of before/after words. Using the following roots, I made some reconstructions for Sindarin:

Faw = before of time √PHĀ/APHA
Cad  = after of time √KĀ/KATA
Haw = before, in front of place √KHYĀ
Pad = after, behind of place √PĀ/PATA

Though we could say that cad is already attested. What do you think?

Paul Strack Apr 13, 2016 (03:31)

I really like the idea that Elvish temporal and spatial relations are reversed from English, and therefore favor Q. epe "before of space, after of time" and "after of space, before of time". But that is just cherry picking from the available options.

Ekin Gören Apr 13, 2016 (05:34)

+Paul Strack I belive we could still use those, as well as the ones above. In my understanding, Tolkien's final decisions were to use them exactly as you said, until the roots in PE22. I still view them valid since the idea is woven into Eä [VT49/12]. And honestly, only thing that encourages me to employ these newly found roots is the ambiguity of in itself, opposing its meaning over and over again. From Early √NOWO to Merin Sentence and everything in between. I can't wait for +Александр Запрягаев's approach to this problem.

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Apr 13, 2016 (16:02)

What are the theoretical Old Sindarin forms? ;)

Ekin Gören Apr 13, 2016 (20:13)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Are they incorrect?
Faw: pʰā > pʰǭ > ɸǭ > ɸau > fau
Cad: kata > kat > kad
Haw: kʰjā > kʰā > kʰǭ > xǭ > xau > hau
Pad: pata > pat > pad

There's the issue of "long final vowels were shorthened -> short final vowels vanished" with √PHĀ and √KHYĀ but that would leave me with just consonants. All the examples I could find (on 'ā>a>ø') have at least two syllables, and we have baw from √BĀ/ABA as a single syllable.

Александр Запрягаев Apr 13, 2016 (21:19)

+Ekin Gören As a temporal solution, maybe. But everyone who hopes to find PE22 LVS1 to be a 'final' solution, pay attention to PE22:167, 168 LVS14…

Tamas Ferencz Apr 13, 2016 (21:41)

"As a temporal solution" - I see what you did there...+Александр Запрягаев

Ekin Gören Apr 13, 2016 (22:05)

+Александр Запрягаев I assume you're refering to these:
EPE, after of time, or[?] after of place. AWA, before of time, OPO, before of place.(p. 167)

And the rest from the next page:
{ epe , before of time.} { awa .}
ō { , from. [?being] {near, behind, past[?] >>} (...)
epe, 'after' {before} of time. after, behind of place.
awa, before, ago of time. opo, before, ahead, in front of place.
auta, ago. autas, a former occur[rence]. (p. 168)

What a mess... Thanks for the heads-up.

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Apr 13, 2016 (22:35)

+Ekin Gören
I asked also because I was keen on knowing whether there was any case ending (*-se or *-da) present in the proto-stages.