Post SFw96yAyRC9

Damien Bador Jun 16, 2018 (15:27)

Psalm 2 in Parmaquesta

As another example of my ongoing translation of the Book of Psalms, here is the Psalm 2. Feel free to comment, especially regarding matters of grammar or vocabulary.

I'll give below a litteral back-translation, but not as cumbersome as the one I gave for the Psalm 1.

1. Manan nórí waltar, nossí nurrur alwaralë ?
What-for countries are-excited, families grumble uselessly?

2. Arani cemenwa χoryar, condor panyar uo anat Yahwé ar elpinozyá.
Kings of-earth have-impulse, princes plan together against Yahve and his-anointed.

3. “Áwë ascatir nútiltai, wë χatir waχáya limiltai!”
“Let-we break-asunder their-bonds, we fling far-away their-thongs!”

4. I mardo meneldë lala; i Χéru yaia té.
The inhabitant in-sky laughs; the Lord mocks them.

5. San quetis ten rúþezyanen; þostaset raiquezyanen:
Then he-says to-them by-his-wrath; he-terrifies-them by-his-anger:

6. “Ananta inyë elpië aranya Sionna, aira orontinya.”
“But-yet I-myself, have-anointed my-king on-Sion, my- holy -mountain.”

7. Nyarin Yahwëo axan. Quentes nin: “Yonya nát ; inyë, síra, onostanië tyë .
I-tell Yahve’s law. He-said to-me: “My-son art-thou; I-myself, today, have-begotten thou.

8. “Á cesta ní, antanyet nórínen an aurá, an armai cemen-tyeldí.
“Let ask me, I-give-you {the} lands as possession, as goods {the} earth-ends.

9. “Á palpa té angaina vanganen; á terχatë té wai cemnaró calpá.”
Let batter them with- {an} iron-made -staff; let break-apart them like {a} potter’s bucket.”

10. Sín, á arani, lë χandai nár; lë peantainar, námor cemenwa!
Now, o kings, you intelligent are; you instructed {are}, judges of-earth!

11. Álë núrir Yahwé þossenen, lë yambar pampilenen.
Let-you serve Yahve with-fear, you cheer with-trembling.

12. Álë miquir talizyat ; cé las raiqua, wanyuvaldë tiessë ; en rúþezyá uryuva. Mánai ilquen i caumainar sessë !
Let-you kiss both-his-feet; maybe he-is-not angry, {otherwise} you-will-disappear in-{the}-path; soon his-wrath will-burn. Blessed everybody who sheltered in-him!

Richard Rohlin Jun 16, 2018 (15:35)


Damien Bador Jun 17, 2018 (17:13)

By the way, here is the link to the latest version of the Jerusalem Bible, which includes a translation of all variants of the Biblical text. - La Bible en ses traditions

Andre Polykanine Aug 09, 2018 (10:57)

As you translate into Parmaquesta (which pleases me a lot, btw!) and use -zya for the third person, why did you use meneldë, not menelzë here?

Damien Bador Aug 19, 2018 (12:48)

This is actually a very good question, which highlights an issue that has (in my opinion) been insufficiently investigated.

On one hand, the At. IIa has often been considered as a version in a Vanyarin (as was said at the time) or Parmaquesta (as we would rather say now) dialect. However, no firm proof of this assertion has been explicited, apart from the use of z in some words.

On the other hand, neither the declensions in At. IIa, nor the declensions in the later versions fully conform to any phonological model developed by Tolkien (e.g., both in the Outline of Phonetic Development and in the Outline of Phonology, original ls “normally was unchanged” (PE 19, p. 99).

However, it is hard to discount entirely the testimony of At., which is one of the longest Quenya texts we have, and which is otherwise fully explainable based on the Quenya grammar that have been published so far.

As a consequence, I have chosen to treat cemen and menel as exceptions to the “normal” development, and I considered a derivation ls(s) > ld without any intermediate step in Parmaquesta. This is of course fully open to debate.

Andre Polykanine Aug 19, 2018 (13:11)

Helge has this: "Nouns ending in -l or -n can have locative forms in -dë, e.g. meneldë, cemendë as the locative forms of menel "heaven", cemen "earth" (VT43:13,17). This
-dë apparently descends from older -zë (the forms menelzë, cemenzë are also attested), and -zë would in turn come from *-së, a shorter variant of the full ending -ssë". Unfortunately, he does not provide links on where those -lzë forms are attested, but here is where I took that assumption from, anyway.

Damien Bador Aug 19, 2018 (14:11)

+Andre Polykanine Precisely: as far as I can tell, these forms menelzë and cemenzë are only attested in the draft versions of At. (menelzë in At. IIa only, and cemenzë both in At. I & IIa).

Helge considers them as valid, but archaïc forms, whereas I consider them as rejected variants, due to the fact that At. I was clearly superseded by At. II, and that At. IIa was itself emended into At. IIb, where these z-forms no longer appear.

I acknowledge however that Helge has some ground for his opinion: in At. IIa also appears the word ilyázëa, which becomes ilyarëa in At. IIb. Apart from the vowel shortening, this indeed exactly corresponds to the Parmaquesta > Ñoldorin Tarquesta rhotacism.

Hence, three questions arise:
- Based on the discussion I summarized above, should we consider the declensions menelzë and cemenzë as valid forms in Quenya?

- If yes, would they belong rather to Ancient Quenya or to Parmaquesta altogether? (For instance, we have examples of sl becoming either ss, rr or ll, but never of staying zl in Parmaquesta; cf. PE 19, p. 102; more examples can be found in p. 101, including the systematic sn > zn > nn, explicitely mentioned to be the Parmaquesta form.)

- If they were to belong to Parmaquesta, should we consider these declensions the regular declensions for words ending in -en and -el, or rather exceptions belonging (for some explained or unexplained reason) to these words only?

For now, until there is some consensus on these questions, I rather stick with cemendë and meneldë (and keep regular declensions for other words).

Damien Bador Aug 29, 2018 (12:11)

From now on, you'll find below the link toward the latest version of Psalm 2. The above version will no longer be updated: - Quenya Psalmist Wordlist

Please take note that I'm using French-style punctuation in my primary document, and that I won't change it for the online version, due to lack of time. It should not impair readibility or understanding in any way.