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Александр Запрягаев Jul 31, 2015 (12:05)

How should I make a cognate of Sindarin brona in Quenya? The stem is BOR(ON); should I, starting from the derivatives like vórima, consider a basic vor or rather watch how the Sindarin word in formed, follow the pattern of TALAT-roots and make vorna? Is it grammatically possible to make TALAT verbs not with final t?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 31, 2015 (12:32)

- simplest would be to assume BOR and form the verb from that; maybe *vorya-, c.f. the attested verya- from BER
- perhaps martya- from MBARAT points to a possible *voronya
- or you can go for the attested termar- :)

Leonard W. Jul 31, 2015 (18:00)

The name Voronwe might help?

Александр Запрягаев Jul 31, 2015 (18:02)

+Leonard W. We have a huge number of derivatives. But no Quenya verbs unfortunately.

Paul Strack Aug 02, 2015 (01:15)

I know of one possible TALAT-stem verb that does not involve a final t: carpa- "to speak" from KARAP. All the examples I know of involve the stem vowel a, so I don't know if vorna would work, but I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't either.

Александр Запрягаев Aug 02, 2015 (11:49)

+Paul Strack I'm unsure how to explain the derivation of N. brona if not by the sundóma suppression and extension. TQ2, however, states that only an ómataima might follow in such a case…

Paul Strack Aug 02, 2015 (12:46)

The vowel loss in brona- does not have to be primitive. The primitive form could have been boróna- (with the accent marking stress). Then the first vowel would have been lost in Old Noldorin/Sindarin because br was a favored initial combination.

Quenya would have preserved the first vowel after which the accent would shift to the initial syllable: bórona-. I am not sure if the second vowel would have been lost or preserved in Quenya. Come to think of it, I think the Quenya syncope took place before the accent shift, so I think both vowels would be preserved in Quenya, as in Q. Voronwe.

So maybe Q. vorona-, conjugated like a weak verb?

Александр Запрягаев Aug 02, 2015 (12:48)

+Paul Strack How is the vórima adjective formed then? According to PE22, -ima forms with long vowels are passive formations from basic verbs.

Paul Strack Aug 02, 2015 (12:56)

Wait, no, I was wrong. The Quenya syncope took place after the accent shift, since primitive berékā produced Q. verka but N. breg... (Ety/BEREK). Thus probably your original suggestion of vorna- is correct.

Paul Strack Aug 02, 2015 (13:13)

A Quenya verb vor- is perfectly legitimate. I was just exploring the idea whether TALAT-stem verb vorna- is also possible. I think it is viable, at least phonetically.

Александр Запрягаев Aug 02, 2015 (13:26)

+Paul Strack Gotcha! Utúvienyes! If vórima is to be read 'steadfast, trustworthy' = voronda (see the alternate reading of Cirion's Oath, UT), then it can be interpreted as 'one who can be trusted' > hence basic *vor means 'to trust' (a person)! We know the conclusion to PE22:158, LVS11 SAB-stem unfinished sentence: Or by a different verb, to trust, rely on (a person):!

Tamas Ferencz Aug 03, 2015 (08:41)

+Paul Strack
there is also PALAP palpa-?

P Arellond Aug 03, 2015 (09:47)

HKF's Quenyallo wordlist seems to point out that the idea behind BOR and all the Q. vor based words is some sort of continuing in action or motion. Thus the 'trustworthiness' in one of the definitions seems to be based on  the continuance of the person being referred to. They don't give up or stop so you can trust them.

So, what guesses do we have for a verb root?
"To continue"/" to keep on doing?  

Tamas Ferencz Aug 03, 2015 (10:24)

+P Arellond
I think there are several possibilities to express the idea. One can use voro as a prefix, see vorogandele 'continuous harping' (I wonder if Tolkien meant this figuratively?:P); one can employ a frequentative form of the verb. Also the expression can be entirely idiomatic (see 'keep on' in English), for instance using the root NID. Perhaps one day we'll see an attested example.
If we want to resort to BOR(ON), I would go for *vor or *vorya.

Александр Запрягаев Aug 03, 2015 (10:26)

+P Arellond +Tamas Ferencz For the Etymologies, yes. But I don't remember any use of such forms for anything but 'faithfulness' in late sources. The change of vórima from 'continuous' to 'steadfast' seems definitive to me.

Tamas Ferencz Aug 03, 2015 (10:36)

+Александр Запрягаев
that's why  I was saying that 'continue' could be entirely idiomatic or come from another root.

E.g. in my native Hungarian the verb 'continue' is related to 'flow'.

Александр Запрягаев Aug 03, 2015 (10:38)

+Tamas Ferencz In Russian, to 'long' and 'length' (spatial). Maybe the BOR stem means basically 'trust' but the extension BOR-ON adds shades of meaning?

Tamas Ferencz Aug 03, 2015 (10:54)

+Александр Запрягаев
looking at Voronwe and voronda, I don't think so.

Александр Запрягаев Aug 03, 2015 (10:56)

+Tamas Ferencz It'd be easier to accept the original explanation, pointing to the shift vórima > voronda in Cirion's Oath as an example of Tolkien remembering he chose a wrong adjective; but the derivation of vórima is quite clear and even from the point of 'Common Eldarin' texts must point to an underlying basic verb beneath.

Matt Dinse Aug 05, 2015 (06:17)

Regarding the final consonant of KALAT bases, PE18:89 says that they "most commonly had as their medial consonant a nasal, sonant, or s, and very frequently (though not necessarily) a final stop (or s)."

Александр Запрягаев Aug 05, 2015 (08:05)

+Tamas Ferencz What about the Boromir derivation from the PE17? It shows the unextended stem form BOR in the meaning 'steadfast'.

Александр Запрягаев Aug 08, 2015 (21:02)

+Paul Strack +Tamas Ferencz What about S. athra? I'm at loss at interpreting it somehow different than TALAT-verbalization out of ATHAR; however, can an apparent TALAT stem appear from mere LAT by left ómataima? (Of course, it could also be a Sindarin-specific derivation with the basic suffix; cf. *cuia 'to wake up', then Quenya counterpart to athrad might as easily become just the asarie).

Paul Strack Aug 08, 2015 (23:12)

There are two other possible explanations of athra-.

1) It could simply be AT(H) plus the verbal suffix ra, seen in verbs like gwathra-.

2) It could be the result of vowel displacement (PE18:87) on the root THAR, whereby the base vowel a is displaced to the beginning of the word to produce athra-. This is the origin, for example, of S. aglar from KALAR.

My reading of PE17:17 is that Tolkien first considered option 1 as the etymology of athra-, then revised it to option 2.

Either way, I thing the result would be treated as an ordinary a-stem derived verb, not a TALAT-stem verb.

Matt Dinse Aug 08, 2015 (23:38)

For a Quenya equivalent of athrad, I might suggest asar(e), at least in 1968 (mondósaresse for "in Oxford"), cp. Noldóran using aran :) That does unfortunately seem to clash with asar (þ) from the Valarin if it's formed from THAR like ambar is from MBAR.

Александр Запрягаев Aug 09, 2015 (10:42)

+Paul Strack I tend to agree that in the time of composition Tolkien thought of athrad as a derivative of rad 'path' (otherwise he wouldn't have said THAR is 'to stand' in PE22:126!). However, the desire to reconcile with Tharbad and, I suggest, with rad > rath in published LotR, led him to THAR as a possible alternative. Actually, he reassigned 'to stand' to TAR in PE17 ('and Gimli in white'), which leaves THAR free quite purposefully! (I wonder what does the STAR, astárie/athárie in both QVS and EVS mean never glossed — just a generic example of a typical derivation?) Hence we must suppose that Taras Mindolluin actually tára Ondoressë — I wonder why here the idea about 'aorist required because it never was anywhere else' is not employed!