Post Sn3pjbGFFHv

Robert Reynolds Dec 02, 2016 (21:12)

I'm new to (Neo-)Quenya and have spent some time with the Ardalambion and Parma Tyelpelassiva courses (plus Eldamo, Parma Eldaliéva, the Bible translation, etc), and I've been trying my own composition/translation to practice and gain deeper understanding. This is a short "test" paragraph I wrote (inspired by the Ainulindale), and I'm interested in feedback: a person can learn a lot by reading, yet interaction helps, too. If this isn't a good place for this kind of thing, feel free to let me know: I don't (yet!) know the community.

Nó quentalë, eryavë Eru engë. Quentalë yesantë írë Eru ontanë Ainur. Antanes ten ëavë; sinen, samiltë vérë sanweltar ar felmeltar ar indómeltar, ar cilmeltar véraltar. Andavë mi eressë engeltë ar sinen tulcaneltë vérë óreltar. Apa tana, Eru yocomyanë te ten yosanien asintë; sinen, alallet óreltar andavë.

Before history, there was only Eru (solely Eru was/existed). History began when Eru created the Ainur. He gave them being; therefore, they have their own thoughts and feelings and wills, and their choices (are: suppressed copula) their own. For a long time (longly) they were (location, so ea-) in solitude and therefore established their own personalities. After that, Eru gathered them together for them to interchange thoughts with each other; in this way, they continually developed their personalities for a long time.

ëavë: gerund of ea-? if so, appropriate word for "being" = "existence"?
sinen: instrumental of root/stem/base "si", used variously for "therefore, in this way, by this means, because of this" (based on tanen but "this" instead of "that")
óre: I used this for "personality", since I didn't see a direct word and its meaning of heart/inner mind/spirit from which personality flows seems close, like individual identity
mi eressë: preposition instead of locative case to avoid -ssesse; would using eryavë as "solitarily", "lonely" work better?
yocomyanë: essentially "togethered"? If so, I like the structure.
ten yosanien: I started with ósanwë, replaced ó- with yo- due to more than two parties, treated sanwë as a verbal abstract noun based on sana-, then took the gerund inflected for dative because of the "in order/for the purpose of" rule (so literally "for them for together-thinking"). Does this "them" need the dative (denoting the beneficiaries) as well as the gerund? Is there a better way to phrase this? Also, I used what seemed like the simplest dative of "te"; are there pros/cons between the alternatives?
asintë: as- "with" + reflexive pron. inte "themselves": is this valid?
alallet: (correct?) past tense of alála- "to continually grow" + -t "they"

Thank you for any help in getting started with this beautiful, elegant language!

Tamas Ferencz Dec 02, 2016 (22:46)

Welcome, Robert - your posts, texts, questions are very much at home here. I'll be happy to comment on your text over the weekend, and hopefully others will join in, too.

Tamas Ferencz Dec 03, 2016 (13:08)

i) "only": we now have an attested adverb rie "only" in Parma Eldalamberon 22
ii) gerund of ea-: per PE22 the verb has two gerundial forms: ie, said to be the 'true' gerund, used "in special circumstances", and ére which functions more as an abstract noun "existence" and could serve your purpose here
iii) sinen: this is fine; here are some alternatives: etta, epetai, sie, sin
iv) personality: some words you could use to express this: nasse, easte
v) **yesante: if this is the past of *yesta- I suggest that would be *yestane, cf. kestane; vistane (unless the verb is strong in which case it could be *yesse? cf. nusta/nusse)
vi) alála-: I think the past will be alálane

Tamas Ferencz Dec 03, 2016 (17:51)

If I understand your parenthetical comment (location, so ea-) correctly, you say that na can only be used as a copula to denote identity/state, so we must use ea to express all other cases of "be"; however, at least suggests it may not be that strict. But if you wish to avoid that altogether, you could use oianer "they lived" (oia- "live, pass someone's days") instead.

Robert Reynolds Dec 03, 2016 (19:23)

I'm still working through your feedback, Tamas: it's very helpful. I feel like I'm learning a lot and can learn much more! It's very useful to talk with someone who understands the big picture. For instance, different sources (that I've seen, so not including PE and VT directly) seem to give different impressions about past tenses, probably due to being written at different times and detail levels given the significant influence of recent publications. Thus, I thought that strong/weak past tenses of derived verbs correlated with intransitive/transitive usage, respectively, while other sources seem to rarely use the strong versions and/or give different styles for them; are there any up-to-date resources to clarify this? The vocab suggestions aid greatly, too: it can be tricky to find all the ways of saying something to make informed choices between them, and knowing the options is an incredibly useful starting point for further research. The usage of ea- vs. na- and the in-context alternative oia- give me more good things to research. Nasse and easte include na- and ea-, according to Eldamo, so the verbs help give insight into comparing these nouns' meanings, too. I (very unfortunately) don't speak any natural language beyond English and have no linguistics training, having been a physics major with strong theoretical tendencies in college; I often pick things up fairly quickly, and tips like looking more deeply into when "to be" is a copula (a word I first heard in Helge Fauskanger's course two months ago), when it's something else, and the Quenya options in each case help me to develop my intuition and knowledge alike in this field. Hantan lyen núrave!

Александр Запрягаев Dec 05, 2016 (09:44)

+Tamas Ferencz Concerning ie and ére, there is also náve after he introduced NA. But I very much like the idea of NA 'to be' getting the suppletive formations for participles/gerunds from EÑ!

Tamas Ferencz Dec 05, 2016 (10:08)

+Александр Запрягаев excellent, we do need alternatives, as many as possible

Tamas Ferencz Dec 05, 2016 (10:12)

+Robert Reynolds in a comment to one of my recent posts in the Koirea Quenya category I listed the verbs Tolkien had provided in Parma Eldalamberon 22 that were available to use to express people and things living, residing, being somewhere.
Sorry I can't give you the link, for some reason Google has removed the possibility of linking to specific posts or comments, we had that option earlier (or it is still there but I cannot find it any more)

Robert Reynolds Dec 05, 2016 (12:12)

+Tamas Ferencz Hantan lyen. Utúvienyes. Samie cilmeli asya turie queno intyale.

Thank you. I have found it. Having choices assists/eases wielding one's imagination.