After your post on losing and lost, I wondered if the phrase for I lost x
could be "vanwa nin...x
Using the same structure as
Ecce nin...x
and
Mauya nin...x
In general these idioms seem to show a preference for the passive voice to express things....Anyone's further thoughts.
Ицхак Пензев Jan 14, 2018 (14:48)
Robert Reynolds Jan 14, 2018 (15:18)
Tamas Ferencz Jan 14, 2018 (15:48)
Paul Strack Jan 14, 2018 (15:51)
vanwa nin Valimar (ná) is probably equally valid, but it isn’t the passive voice: it’s a copula.
However vanwa and auta are a fairly drastic form of “lost”. It doesn’t just mean “gone”, but “gone for good”. I don’t think you could use it for something like “I lost my keys” unless you were feeling especially dramatic: “lost to me are my keys like the passing of the ages!” :)
For this more ordinary sense of “to lose or mislay”, I’d favor using the same neologism I suggested for “forget”: laisa- based of G. laitha-
Tamas Ferencz Jan 14, 2018 (15:57)
Evan A Jan 14, 2018 (16:06)
Paul Strack Jan 14, 2018 (16:17)
Once again I am lamenting the fact that we have no good verb for “to put, place, lay” since caita- “to lie (down)” is so clearly intransitive. I know we’ve discussed this before and I can’t remember what conclusion we came up with.
Right now I am tempted to assume caita- can be used both transitively and intransitively, like orta-. The verb kaita- meant “to place” in Early Quenya. So maybe loicaita- for “mislay”.
Björn Fromén Jan 14, 2018 (18:31)
Tamas Ferencz Jan 14, 2018 (18:35)
Paul Strack Jan 14, 2018 (18:36)
Tamas Ferencz Jan 14, 2018 (18:49)
Tamas Ferencz Jan 14, 2018 (18:52)
If we had examples of /ta/ya verbs having inceptive forms we could coin *kaitu- on analogy of hamu- 'sit down'.
Paul Strack Jan 14, 2018 (18:53)
To me, the ablative, allative and locative cases have to do with motion and placement, and vanwa nillo would mean something more like “taken or removed away from me” rather than simply (and more abstractly) “lost for me”.
Robert Reynolds Jan 14, 2018 (19:04)
Such as I understand, in Q this can be expressed verbally, through inflection, by mo etékie parma “someone (indeterminate, unspecified) has written a book” (pattern from QVS); to my English background this seems like active voice with a dummy (more or less) subject except that it’s unclear to me how to include the doer if desired. Alternately, one can use a participial construct parma tekina (ná) “a book is written ~ [in this case] a book has been written” without an explicitly specified tense or perhaps QVS-suggested/implied parma tékienwa (ná) (*tekindonen) “a book is having been written = has been written (by a writer)” (with possible variant parma tékiéna (ná) if LVS-era passive participles follow the pattern of their active counterparts) or more direct but very English-looking parma tekina anaie “a book has been written”. Is this understanding more or less correct?
The Q impersonal pattern without any subject, dummy or otherwise, seems neat/clean to me when attested but I’m unclear if it can be used for examples like mine: is there anything like etékie parma “(someone) has written a book ~ a book has been written”? If so, can the doer be specified passively in it: something like etékie parma *tekindonen “a book has been written by a writer, (lit. (someone) has written a book by a writer)”?
In other words, is there a Q verbal/inflectional passive voice phrase like impersonal avánie nin Valimar (Valaron axannen) “Valimar has been (permanently) lost to me (by the law of the Valar) ~ I have lost Valimar (because of the Valarin ban)” for my example *tekindo etékie parma and, if so, does it allow one to optionally passively specify the doer *tekindo?
Tamas Ferencz Jan 14, 2018 (19:05)
Evan A Jan 14, 2018 (19:15)
Paul Strack Jan 14, 2018 (19:17)
I think in cases where there is a doer, but that doer is unknown or unspecified, Quenya would use an impersonal subject like mo or ma. English often uses the passive voice to avoid specifying a subject in questions where this is awkward (e.g. to avoid placing blame): "mistakes were made". I think Quenya would also use an impersonal subject there.
Paul Strack Jan 14, 2018 (19:42)
In the case of avánie nin Valimar, here I think the implication would be that Valimar was lost to me through no one’s action, but rather through fate or happenstance. Of course, it’s an open question whether the verb auta- can be used passively in this way, so vanwa nin Valimar (ná) might be better.
Paul Strack Jan 14, 2018 (19:52)
mo etécie parma Eldarino i cé cesya tyen = "someone has written a book about Elvish that might interest you"
This phrase might be used to suggest a book when you don't remember the author. The subordinate clause cesya tyen is a more genuine passive construction (though I suppose parma could be considered its subject).
Tamas Ferencz Jan 14, 2018 (19:59)
Robert Reynolds Jan 14, 2018 (20:11)
Robert Reynolds Jan 14, 2018 (20:37)
Ицхак Пензев Jan 15, 2018 (13:23)