Post UsHWNTaq8Kp

Александр Запрягаев Apr 01, 2016 (15:01)

UPDATE 2.04.2016: Happy April Fools' Day!

Hello everyone and so sorry for a long period of absence. (Especially to +Ekin Gören who constantly failed to reach me and to +Fiona Jallings who tried so much.) But I have a reason for such a long silence indeed, for I've been quietly working on some projects one of which, as it reaches a printable stage, I'm ready to present to you right now.
I've been allowed to study the text of a newly unsurfaced Tolkien's manuscript of his late period (ca. 1969-70), held in the 'Quenya C' box-file and concerning the language of Rohan in its connection with both the Eldarin and the Common Spech. Now I may proudly show it to all of you enthusiasts in the group as the following preview article complete with a historical and linguistic analysis of the manusctipt's features and contents.
I dedicate this work to +Christopher Gilson and profusely thank +Tamas Ferencz who made all this endeavour posible. (I don't even pretend to comprehend which strings exactly he had to pull in order to allow me such a job...) Anyway, if you wish to learn lots of new information concerning Rohanese (and even some new Elvish attestations along the way), here it is!

Remy Corbin Apr 01, 2016 (18:29)


Daniele Ercoli Apr 01, 2016 (18:57)

Wonderful work, I'm impressed!
I would only notice that the correct Latin expression is "terminus a quo" and not "ad quo", but probably is a typo.

Paul Strack Apr 02, 2016 (00:48)

This is great! Do you intend to publish this someplace? It would be nice to be able to cite the document correctly.

Rick Spell Apr 02, 2016 (04:20)

Good work!

Matt Dinse Apr 02, 2016 (05:49)

How exciting! Congratulations, and nice work!

Александр Запрягаев Apr 02, 2016 (12:33)

+Tamas Ferencz +Remy Corbin +Daniele Ercoli +Paul Strack +Rick Spell +Matt Dinse Time to reveal myself, I guess :D Indeed, this manuscript deals with the tongue of Rohan in vein of PE22, giving some new insight to the relationship between the narrative 'Common Speech' and real-life 'English', and indeed it is written with special attention to the predilections and details of Tolkien's ca. 1969 linguistic and historical works. And truly, a long job it was, started in last September and only weeks ago brought to completion.
However it does not belong to J. R. R. Tolkien at all! Say hello to the first ever Tolkienian linguistic pastiche, composed by myself both in the 'explanation' and the 'manuscript' parts! Alassea minya Viresseo!
In a couple of days, I hope to present to you all stages of making the 'document' and the explanation of the forms used. (And sorry to all of you who actually believed into my humble attempt. I still have some projects to reveal, one in mere weeks, and they are all true!)

Paul Strack Apr 02, 2016 (12:58)

Oh that's devilish. And still excellently done!

Daniele Ercoli Apr 02, 2016 (18:24)


Matt Dinse Apr 02, 2016 (21:17)

Hook, line, and sinker; I was about to start discussing the forms. Very clever!

Remy Corbin Apr 02, 2016 (21:36)

I prefere this lie to the truth :-/

Александр Запрягаев Apr 02, 2016 (21:46)

+Matt Dinse You still can :) I'd rather very much listen to those!

Matt Dinse Apr 03, 2016 (19:32)

+Александр Запрягаев, car is immediately reminiscent of GAR/3AR, and it seemed apparent that gen. kartirh has vowel affection like the Sindarin pl. (cp. Erul-i). I wasn't sure whether terh and (n)yar-ma were related to anything currently published, or are your own inventions meant to make the forgery more authentic. Trying to suggest a link betw. terh and 30s Taliska widris does seem to me to be a massive leap, whether in logic or phonology. I wondered whether rh is meant to represent a voiceless R, or , and therefore what its underlying derivation might be.

Is 3UL linked to something already published? ᵹlus looks like a syncope of ᵹulus, though (while still fooled) I had wondered whether that might show a suffix us, or s with ómataima as in Eldarin. Was Nargluz from narg + ᵹlus with assimilation? narg is explainable from ndakr through processes like with Q nekra –> nerca with some kind of voicing, though I suppose the idea might have been an intermediate nark-ᵹlus that assimilated to gl.

Is the pbdq <-> t part supposed to be your misreading of the "original manuscript", or is that an accurate "reading" and I just can't figure out its meaning?

I'm still thinking about some of the other parts.

Александр Запрягаев Apr 10, 2016 (19:54)

+Matt Dinse Soon I shall show the stages of making the manuscript, and you'll be able to observe all stages, but these particular questions I could answer right now!
I needed carthirion for its Sindarin meaning, so I was free to assign any meanings to its Westron version (as Tolkien would have done, apparently, himself). Car was made reminiscent of Etym 3AR deliberately (Tolkien was very keen to consult the Etymologies in this era, cf. Cirion's Oath, indo in LVS14 etc.!). (n)yar-ma was supposed to express the notion 'Tolkien recognising the general shape but failing to represent the particular word due to not looking it up in the original place', with the derivation yazma < YAS being kept in mind. 

3ul I took from Erul in order to make the connection between Eorl and Eldandur more plausible, so any similarities are coincidental. The process I envisioned was something like ndak/re//3(u)l/us > nark/3lus > narg/glus > nargluz through metathesis followed by assimilation of 3 to preceding k.

pbdq <->t you'll see with your own eyes! THe meaning I gave to this jotting was an idea that the symbols for p, b, d are in Latin script systematic and almost tengwar-ish, and if only the symbol _q_ had the value [t], everything'd made sense!