Post V8oHpiN3yZq

Damien Bador Jul 17, 2018 (14:55)

A Psalmist Wordlist
To support my work on translating the Book of Psalms, I've built a specific wordlist on Google Sheets, which identifies all words I've been using, whether attested or not.

Attested words can be found in column A (or column B for unattested orthographies). Their attested declensions are in column H, and their unattested declensions in column J.

Neologisms of any kind are in column L, with their declensions in column P. Most of them are self-explanatory, but notes have been added to explain the few that need it.

A self-measure of the quality of these neologisms is in column R (see the "Presentation" tab for details). Any grade below 4 is really poor, and I'd be interested in any suggestion to change those words.

Feel free to send me corrections or comments. Comments can also directly be added to the Google Sheet.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 17, 2018 (15:11)

Well, no one could accuse you of not being thorough, +Damien Bador :) (BTW is *terkara a good neologism for "thorough"?)
I will certainly look through the list.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 17, 2018 (15:26)

I wanted to add, your scoring system is really interesting and a great idea.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 17, 2018 (15:31)

*alata-: would the later varya- fit the sense you were looking for?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 17, 2018 (15:35)

*apaita-: not sure what more does this provide as compared with tur- or perhaps *ortur- (cf. S. orthor-)?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 17, 2018 (15:39)

*ítarata feels weird on my tongue, can't tell why

Tamas Ferencz Jul 17, 2018 (15:40)

what's the idea behind akar- "complete, accomplish"?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 17, 2018 (16:02)

not sure if *moinwa is a valid word phonetically in Quenya?

Damien Bador Jul 18, 2018 (10:57)

+Tamas Ferencz I admit the combination oinw isn't attested, but I can't find any attestation of diphthong reduction before consonantic groups, so I expect that oi wouldn' change. (Unfortunately, Tolkien didn't detail very much the topic of diphthongs in Q.)

Regarding nw, there are examples of changes to nu, but only after consonantic groups, which isn't the case here.

So I'm not sure what change could apply here, and I tend to think that it must be valid. What would you have expected?

Damien Bador Jul 18, 2018 (11:36)

+Tamas Ferencz *ítarata is probably too long to feel like a right Q. word. Also, arata is already an exception to the Q. syncope, which adds to the "weirdness" felt.

I must admit I wasn't entirely satisfied with this one. Hence, following your remark, I've changed it to *ítarta, which is hopefully better. Don't hesitate to tell me your opinion.

Damien Bador Jul 18, 2018 (11:42)

+Tamas Ferencz Yes, of course varya- fill well the meaning expected for alata-, but the point is that I need here a synonym to reflect the synonymy in the original.

I've used varya- elsewhere, and I try to avoid any under-translation that would blur vocabulary variations in these poems.

Damien Bador Jul 18, 2018 (11:47)

+Tamas Ferencz For apaita-, I also needed a synonym to avoid re-using tur-. Besides, in this case, I had to put the stress on conquering rather than dominating or mastering. Hence my choice.

However, I must admit I missed the C.E. ortur-, which has quite the right meaning and is much more compatible with the later Q. vocabulary. I'll do the change right away.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 18, 2018 (11:58)

+Damien Bador how about *ítaráta with a lengthening to change the stress pattern?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 18, 2018 (12:04)

+Damien Bador I think the perfective form of moia- would be moianwa like alanwa from ala-

Damien Bador Jul 18, 2018 (12:06)

+Tamas Ferencz Regarding *acar-, I must admit this isn't as simple a case as my grading puts it.

For me, the prefix a- appearing for some verbs in Markirya (e.g. ahosta) could actually denote completion (or incompletion, depending on your reading), rather than infinitive: I don't believe in a prefixed infinitive, as it runs contrary to all other examples and explanations on Q. infinitive.

Yet, I must admit that without further data on this topic, this is too tentative an explanation to stand in a translation.

Hence, I've changed this verb to *tercar-, thanks to your "thorough" neologism suggestion and to the well-established example of mar- / termar-. I hope you will find this an improvement.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 18, 2018 (12:08)

Concerning "lend, loan", perhaps in Quenya that would not be a single word but a phrase like lehta/sene lúmenna quenen "(re)lease for a time to someone"

Tamas Ferencz Jul 18, 2018 (12:26)

+Damien Bador concerning the a- prefix see this thread from a few weeks ago:

Damien Bador Jul 18, 2018 (15:43)

+Tamas Ferencz So you'd prefer ítaráta to *ítarta?

Damien Bador Jul 18, 2018 (15:55)

+Tamas Ferencz For moia-, I considered it a "ā-verb" rather than a "half-strong", due to the inherently "continuous" nature of the activity. The rule in that case called for suppressing the ā- ending (cf. PE 22, p. 116).

Yet is it true this verb comes from mōja-, and we could consider it to be a "half-strong". This has the advantage of removing the phonological issue. I adopt your idea.

Damien Bador Jul 18, 2018 (16:02)

+Tamas Ferencz On what ground should be consider that lending money was unknown to Númenórians, if not to the Elves? After all, Tolkien developed quite a few Qenya words for "peddlar", "hawking goods" and the like, which point toward a truly commercial society, at least in Middle-earth.

In such a context (not to mention the context of the Psalmic redaction, heavily influenced by Mesopotamian and Phoenician societies), having a periphrastic rendering of such a basic verb as "loan" seems cumbersome. An unpractical in poetry, in any case.

Still, I readily admit that there could be better solutions than my own on this matter, but I would insist on a single (maybe compounded) verb, not an entire sentence.

Damien Bador Jul 18, 2018 (16:28)

+Tamas Ferencz Thanks for the link. Very interesting discussion. The mediopassive voice seems an explanation fitting well all attested examples of a- verbs.

This confirms it was necessary to change *acar-.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 19, 2018 (08:38)

+Damien Bador my arguments are similar to your we just got a different conclusion. I agree that 'lend' would be a basic verb in Q (not in the verb-class sense but as a semantic entity); however, we don't know how Tolkien would've formed it (would it be related to a root meaning 'release'? 'loose'? 'yield'? 'give'? or something new?) so my thought was that for now it's safer to resort to a phrase instead of coming up with a compound.
Having said that, I am starting to warm to your *lúmelav-; after all, 'timeshare' is a thing in English.

Damien Bador Jul 19, 2018 (13:22)

+Tamas Ferencz I fully agree with you on the fact that Tolkien might have come up with a very different idea than mine, either from another attested root or from an entirely new one.

In fact, I would be really surprised if we were to learn that I was right. And that would be mostly luck.

Yet, I remain convinced that we cannot afford a periphrastic construction, especially in poetry. Which is why I attempted to create a word that would be understandable as a kenning, even if it weren't what Tolkien might have invented.

And of course, I intend to revise the whole Psalmic translation with each new publication, and I hope we'll end up getting attested words for most of my neologisms.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 19, 2018 (14:12)

I see that you extrapolated *tyaila "sacrifice" from T. jagula. Looking at other derivates of the root DAGA it looks that they're mostly continuant with the later root NDAK, so perhaps "sacrifice" could be derived from it as well, using a similar form, like *nyahta- or *nyak-?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 19, 2018 (16:25)

the above suggestion concerns the verb forms of course, not the noun

Damien Bador Jul 20, 2018 (09:58)

+Tamas Ferencz I don't really agree with your comment that other derivates from DAGA fit with derivates from later NDAK-: as far as I can tell, only Q. nahta is in this case. Yet your concern is right and raise an important point, as my derivation can't fit with root NDAK-. It would be a perfect fit for the phonological rules of Early Qenya, but no longer correct in the frame of the "Outline of Phonology".

From E.T. jagula and comparison with E.T. tagula (derived from E.Prim. dagla, we can complete and update the E.Prim. word dịag from which jagula is supposed to derive: it should be in fact. *dịag-la (or more precisely *dịag-lā). Hence, two possibilities: if we consider that the new root still is (N)DAK- (as in Etym.) rather than NDAK-, then the initial would become l- in Q. I'll avoid this option, as the later version of the root is always said to be NDAK-, with no Q. words that could be traced to an alternate *DAK-, as far as I can tell.

If we choose to stick with the later attestations of the root, the primitive word can only be *ndịak-lā. At this stage, we know that kl groups are changed, either by insertion of a vowel whose quality is the same as the previous vowel: this would give Q. *nyacal(a). In some (unspecified) cases, a metathesis can occur: this would give Q. *nyalca. I tend to prefer the later one for brevity reasons, but your advice would be appreciated, especially since this type of metathesis is said to be a non-systematic sound-change.

Damien Bador Jul 20, 2018 (10:02)

+Tamas Ferencz Your last comment is cryptic for me: as you label E.T. jagula a noun (and I tend to agree), I would have expected that your comments concerned the noun, not the verb (which I actually derive from the recontructed noun).

Tamas Ferencz Jul 24, 2018 (10:45)

+Damien Bador what I meant was that under the "updated" root NDAK the Eldarin verb (and consequently the late Quenya verb) "to sacrifice" could have the same relationship to the Eldarin verb "to slay, kill" as under the early root DAGA. And yes indeed, the same applies to the noun as you have rightly pointed out.

Damien Bador Aug 27, 2018 (11:40)

I have now completed and fully revised my translation up to Ps. 41.

First, I'll reflect these additions to the online Wordlist, then I'll create new tabs to give the latest version of each Psalm, as revising text on Google+ isn't very convenient.

Damien Bador Sep 03, 2018 (16:19)

The wordlist is now fully updated up to Ps. 44.

Tamas Ferencz Sep 03, 2018 (16:24)

Great progress, Damien.