G+ LoME Archive
Apr 20, 2015 (17:53)
Once again, if you don't find much metric poetry in Sindarin, go and write yourself. This time, the rhythm is retained, not a single line or syllable lost, even the length of vowels is taken into consideration. Any corrections and additional ideas are very much welcome.
ideas and additions incorporated, prestanneth re-checked!
Nas egor ú-nas? Sen i•vabeth uireb;
Ma darthathanc dan Amarth orothen
Ah endrethinc i•hern a philinn bain în —
Na•Cherf dan Aer i•Mrestaid egor 'waenc,
Hain methel maethiel? I•wanath ôl,
Mal lûr en•Adan; methinc gwenniel
I•chúnnaeg vín a meneg chuir e•'rond,
I Rhauchil ná? Sen medui nirf rovellen —
I•iest en•gwannad. Gurth i egel ôl,
Mal ôl i•olthas ná. Ae, thî i•nangweth!
Ir oltha 'men, man tirithanc vi•Nôr
Ial minnanc, tobas firin hediel,—
Boe rethed sí. Im hiriant i•gaethad
I câr i•guil na andaen Gorgoroth:
Man brono aru iaew ah eithad Lû;
E•_Darlang_ faegais ah e•Mbauglir ethgair,
I mabel aith e•Meleth
Dan ú-lim Mbaudh ah, athar úgerth bain,
Ú-arod Gónin dan i•'waith în arod, —
Ir Ilphen gwaed ídhrannen methed gar
Dan Sigil paran? Man aen berthatha
I•vronad long e•guilenc lom a cholphant,
Pen naedelos o naid ab 'wanath tolel,
O Ndorion nan aeben ú-istannen,
Ial dandoled awanwen, tóliel
I•nireth vín; mi gelinc haw i ngerinc,
Ir pelinc chili ethrin bregyl haw.
Ae, gûren neitha ven o berad chûn
A phêl i•lûth en•ind vín, penel 'welu,
Dan gwanwen Nauthenc nuim morchaint nimp,
A berthais veleg, pant nan
Sui dhuin ascar,
Carth ú-estannen sí. Mal pusto nin!
vaimellen! Úgerth nîn
Vi bethaidh reni.
[A rough translation for those asking:
Being or not-being? 'Tis question eternal,
Shall we endure against Fate the rageful
And long-suffer the stones and all arrows of it —
Or with Arms against the Sea of Troubles go,
Ending it while fighting? Dying is sleep,
But slumber of Man; do we end by departing
The heart-pain ours and thousand vigours of body,
Whose Flesh is heir? 'Tis final will most-beloved —
The wish to leave. Death [is] other sleep,
But sleep a process of dreaming is. Lo, here the answer!
When dream [comes] to us, what shall we see in the Country
[That] we shall enter after cover mortal having thrown, —
I have to stay now. I found the reason
Which makes the life [an] over-long-and-thin Valley of Fear:
Who could survive scorns and insults of Time,
The Stiff-neck's mean deeds and the Oppressor's wrong-doings,
The grasping claws of Love despised,
With non-swift Court and, beyond all misdeeds,
Un-noble Princes with their people noble, —
When everybody is able to desirably finally depart
With Dagger bare? Who would dare
The endurance heavy of life ours, weary and burdenful,
Without horrible fear of things after dying coming,
From [a] Wide-country by anyone unknown,
From which return [is] forbidden, having played
With will ours; we carry filths we own,
When can find different, violent filths.
Lo, conscience ours deprives us from the boldness of heart,
And wane the blossom of resolve ours, lacking air,
With gone Thought ours under the deep shadows pale,
And enterprises mighty, full with wrath and hope,
Like river rushing, having changed its lode,
Is not called Action now. But stop me!
Ophelia beatiful and beloved! Sins of mine
In words thine remember.]
mabeth 'question' < ma+peth (cf. dambeth)
ma 'interrogative particle' — the simplest scenario assumed, with
being a primitive interrogation and
sentense is a contraction ma+na 'to be'
orothen 'rageful' < oroth+en (*orothren could be better, but breaks the line)
pilinn 'arrow' (Q. pilin)
carf 'weapon' (Q. carma)
meth- 'to end' < methed 'ending' (I never believed the possibility of basic Sindarin verbs ending with an unvoiced consonant, but now I do)
húnnaeg 'heart's pain' < hûn+naeg
nirf 'act of will' (Q. nirmë)
rovellen 'most beloved' < ro-, raw- (PE17) + mellen (pt. part. of mel- 'love')
egel 'other, different' (cf.
in PE17, G. eleg 'other, else')
mal 'but' (Q. mal)
caethad 'reason' < G. caitha- 'cause'
andaen 'exceedingly long and thin' < and+taen
aru pt. t. of *gar- 'can, be able' < *a'awr
mab- 'grasp' (Q. map-)
ath 'claw' (Q. asta)
angreitha- 'despise' (G. agrectha-; I replaced intensifier a- with specializer an-)
ilphen 'everybody' (Q. ilquen)
colphant 'burdenful' < caul+pant (I implemented liquid-mutation for aesthetic purposes)
Dorion 'wide-country' < dor + -iaun
aeben 'whoever' (Q. aiquen)
awanwen 'forbidden' (Q. awanwa, see PE17)
tóliel is pt. act. part. of telia-, to avoid misreadings; tol- gives túliel
nireth 'will' (Q. nirmë, I chose to render two almost synonimous words, one cognate, one not)
pol- 'can, be able' (Q. pol-)
othren- 'different in bad way' (proposed in these discussions)
Ae, gúren… — I allowed myself a little Sindarin-only pun of 'heart' and 'heart'
berad 'boldness' ber+ad
baimellen 'beatiful and beloved' (an attempt to cognate Q. vanimelda; bain+mellen)
bethaidh 'thy words' (just to avoid misreadings, peth(a)+dh+PL)
ren- 'remember' (PQ. REN, cf. Salo)
Apr 20, 2015 (22:39)
That's a mighty undertaking. Hats off
Apr 20, 2015 (23:35)
Oh COOL! This must have taken a loooong time to do. Good job!
I do have some notes on things I wanted to ask you about.
Is there a reason that you are leaving out prestanneth? For example:
Line1: i•mabeth (I'd expect to find Lenition, so it'd be
Line3: a philinn
a philinn bain în
(Lenition: I Thraw)
Line10: i•dangweth (Lenition:
Side note: ab hannen tobas firin - after thrown, mortal cover? That's supposed to be "when we will have shuffled off this mortal coil", right? I'd translate this with a perfective participle:
helthiel e throe firin
- "having stripped out of mortal bodies", since Tolkien often described bodies as clothing for immortal souls.
Why are you using "mal" instead of "ach" for "but"? "Ach" is attested in Noldorin (VT50).
You're using perfective participles differently than I've seen done before. Could you explain why you're using them these ways?
Oltha- is an impersonal verb, so "olthathanc" would be "olthatha ammen" - because it's Lórien giving the dream. That means that "olthad" would mean "dream giving" more than "dreaming".
Sorry, I can't go farther than line 12, I've got homework. Graduating college is more important than reading awesome translations. Anyways, this is really cool, and I'm really impressed!
Apr 21, 2015 (10:11)
What a mighty deed you have done! I bow before you friend. And seeing we share the same ideas (like mabeth, or using ilphen, egel) used in this masterpiece, gives me joy.
Apr 21, 2015 (11:02)
Yes, what a feast are comments like yours indeed! Missing prestanneth are from two reasons: 1) to avoid undesirable homonymy 2) due to impossibility of fresh-eyed proof-reading. Preparing it for publication, I had to decipher my own ideas from the early part and even replace some words I could't anymore interpret! (For instance, in line 6 I had 'meneg
e•rond'. If anybody could explain me my own line of thoughts, I'd gladly return it). I've re-read the text now, trying to restore mutations and rephrase some things.
Some answers to particular musings.
— I don't believe
causes any mutation (_egor ben genediad… _ — not an enlightening example), and the predicate is only lenited when goes right after the subject. But I agree, mutating here would be more pleasant to read, so I do change the line.
Line 8: I totally re-fashioned the line now; I wanted to make clear
is reflexive, not article, there, and consciously refused to mutate; but, as I read it again, I guessed it is better to rephrase.
was nasal mutation after reflexive
. Now I use
— I prefer my own
'throw (away)' and
for aesthetic reason (I tried with
, it doesn't work; also, I used this word earlier and want a metaphor now instead); I meant 'after mortal cover [is] thrown', but if it's the unclear, I rephrased it with pt. act. part.; took some tricking with metre.
: Never knew about
before, and now, when I checked the VT50, it still remains doubtful: first, Tolkien seems to be explicitly eliminating it; second, I'm unsure the meaning is 'but' exactly. Taking a Q. cognate from much later period seems to be a more reliable way of getting a Sindarin word than asking ancient Noldorin for help.
: I suspected something like that. After all, it's tricky to translate line about dreams into a language where 'sleeping' and 'dreams' are not well-divided. Hence I changed it.
I cannot find any really strange perfective participles here; in fact, there are not so many of them at all. Are they grammatically unexpected or formed from verbs by strange rules?
Please, don't stop with just these twelve lines; I'm getting a lot of insight and understanding of the language from your comments!
I wouldn't have even gotten the idea of such a huge translation if not the wonderful discussions in this group! I wonder what is currently the longest Sindarin text in existence; I'd like to beat that one day…
Apr 21, 2015 (11:11)
I think you'll have to beat me to it, because I'm going for it right now! But your translation is something more than just a long one. Including the metre is truly something greater than that. What a delicate work!
Apr 21, 2015 (12:09)
Wonderful! I read the whole text yesterday, without looking at the original, and the meaning sometimes eluded me, so I'm definitely not an fluent speaker, even with a dictionary, but what a joy! I'll read the text again soon, and maybe give comments.