This is a bit of a speculative post. Amazon recently announced a deal with the Tolkien estate for a Middle Earth TV series. Who knows how long it will be in production, but this may mean that in 2 or 3 years we may have an popular media presentation of the Elvish languages and a spike in interest in Quenya and Sindarin along the lines of what happened with a Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings movies.
Assuming that all happens, what kinds of preparations could we make in the next couple of years to make Elvish more accessible to new potential fans? Dictionaries, grammars, video lessons, social media forums? What kind of things did you most miss when you started studying these languages?
Александр Запрягаев Nov 18, 2017 (08:38)
By the way, shouldn't we try and get employed at Amazon as linguistic consultants?
Severin Zahler Nov 18, 2017 (14:09)
Robert Reynolds Nov 18, 2017 (14:57)
Therefore we could endeavor to produce teaching materials, preferably several with each oriented toward different learning styles and objectives, that give up-to-date, relatively comprehensive instruction aimed at acquiring rather than studying the languages while still taking them seriously (i.e. sticking to real Elvish/Neo-Elvish, authoritative/knowledgeable authorship, etcetera).
That may be challenging given Tolkien's and his languages' natures but should be possible: Helge Fauskanger's Quenya course was excellent for me in that regard. He started from basic concepts, assuming little to no specific linguistic knowledge, and yet built up to advanced topics. He taught not merely "what" but "why" and "how"; this immeasurably helped me with my thinking style to more deeply understand and retain the material. His verbosity and dry sense of humor clicked well with my own corresponding traits (cf. this reply). The main challenge that I had with it was that once I'd completed a preliminary pass through it, whenever I tried making my own translations and compositions I found many gaps in my knowledge: I could say much in English that I didn't know how to properly say in Quenya.
That was the primary factor in my needing to delve into heavy linguistic material for up-to-date, comprehensive info on (particularly) verbal forms and derivatives, formation of compounds, and (recently) numbers. Once within that realm, it was difficult to fit particular ideas of Tolkien's into context: without having studied most of his primary linguistic material, it's hard to distinguish between passing thoughts that never took hold and ideas that he later changed and ideas that were "final" insofar as that concept makes sense regarding Tolkien. I've been enjoying that linguistic journey and continue to (just received VT41-50 yesterday) and have begun delving deeper into Quenya evolution and phonology. Many potential Elvish fans may not go so far and we should try to cater to them as well as persons like us.
Paul Strack Nov 18, 2017 (17:39)
It could be my own biases speaking, but I feel like the biggest unmet need in both Sindarin and Quenya is a lack of a consistent vocabulary. That was my original motive on working on Eldamo: to collect all the available data to produce an internally consistent set of definitions across the major languages. As much as I like Helge's Quettaparma Quenyallo, it jumbles words together across various periods without a lot of distinctions between them. I think Didier Willis's Sindarin Dictionary does better in this regard, but it is getting pretty dated.
What's missing from the existing from the existing grammars that needs to be addressed? What kind of work would we need to do to improve the available vocabulary, maybe even have working dictionaries?
Robert Reynolds Nov 18, 2017 (18:29)
Also, something like "extended" or "neo-"glosses could help at times. For example, if one searches 'many' as a gloss in Q in Eldamo one gets a prefix and suffix based on √LI but not rimba as its attested glosses say 'numerous' though it seems likely usable with this meaning, ᴹ√RIM is glossed 'large number', and the Early Quenya equivalent is glossed 'many'. A centralized resource of these interpretations may make attested vocab easier to find.
Regarding grammar, a recent example of mine was translating a past retrospective/pluperfect 'until torment had burned/consumed it' which I rendered tenna anquale náne urtiélas. This likely isn't the only interpretation of such a grammatical construct but I might not have known any without possessing PE22. An up-to-date centralized grammatical reference that puts essentially everything (including alternate potential approaches as applicable) in one place, like Eldamo is for vocab, could help. For me, tabular formats often effectively organize such data. Some analog of Eldamo's searching and filtering goes along the same lines.
Paul Strack Nov 19, 2017 (01:05)
Regarding vocabulary, there are a whole host of minor contradictions in the corpus. One example on my mind at the moment (since I was recently worked on PE21) is Q. hón “heart”. In the Etymologies this is derived from the root KHO-N, but Tolkien seems to have changed this root the KHOM, from which we also have the lovely Q. holmo “sincerely” (originally “from the center”).
The problem is that the root KHOM is not compatible with N. hûn “heart” (also from the Etymologies), since primitive final m would become v in Noldorin/Sindarin. There is also evidence of a possible reversion to primitive khōn in later writing (PE21/71, 77). It is unlikely we would have both Q. holmo “sincerely” and S. hûn “heart” in an internally consistent Elvish paradigm.
As much as I like holmo, I think it needs to be discarded because overall, S. hûn is probably a more important vocabulary word. The languages are littered with little linguistic puzzles like this, many of don’t have straightforward solutions.
Tamas Ferencz Nov 19, 2017 (09:44)
Tamas Ferencz Nov 19, 2017 (10:03)
Robert Reynolds Nov 19, 2017 (12:26)
I still feel optimistic, perhaps more with estel than amdir: I briefly described Q and the Eldarin language evolution tree to a friend last night and he exclaimed that Tolkien had been "insane"; I countered "or genius: he was rather successful" (referencing a saying "madness and genius are separated only by degree of success"). Tolkien and his works seem to be in a different category in certain respects, and even many people who aren't diehard Tolkien fans seem to feel it.
Robert Reynolds Nov 19, 2017 (12:29)
Paul Strack Nov 19, 2017 (13:52)
Regarding Jackson’s movies, I agree that it was a golden moment in the interest in Elvish, and may not be reproducible. However, I think PE17 was transformational in our knowledge of the later forms of Elvish and the fact that it was published after the first three movies was unfortunate.
I’ve stumbled across a number of rather depressing messages on various forums where people express an interest in learning Elvish only to be told “No, sorry, that’s impossible, because Elvish was never finished.” I wonder how many casual fans are being turned away because of this incompleteness, and what we might to do to cater to such beginners.
Lokyt L. Nov 19, 2017 (18:55)
But I don't think at all that the main obstacle in furthering and deepening our knowledge of Tolkien's languages is the "lack of agreement" (or the "lack of personnel"). I think it's the lack of sources.
I mean: Maybe I'm missing something, but how can we move forward from just processing Tolkien's own, explicitly stated data, when we haven't even collected it yet? A considerable part of the primary sources are still not available for use (how much of the collection in Bodleian has been published in extenso so far? two thirds? less? and Bodleian is not all there is)...
I know off course that many actually are trying to "fill the gaps" already (and have been trying since decades). But in my opinion it's still somewhat premature - we can't be positively sure if "gaps" really are gaps, we can't be sure that our fan-made creations won't get proven wrong in the near future by newly surfaced original materials.
So - could we do something about THIS before the theoretically expected wave of interest arrives?
And to turn the question the other way around, couldn't the possible future rise of Tolkien's popularity actually help to achieve a better accessibility of Tolkien's unpublished or incompletely published materials?
Robert Reynolds Nov 19, 2017 (19:01)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ac-zj1chkEULhh1YQ31VkhxBXsC1gjhj5n4ecmOluD-2Gq7gJaviPBGjDSgqyLBDYfnoMYmGEg
Paul Strack Nov 19, 2017 (22:20)
For introducing new fans, perfection may not matter, especially since true perfection is essentially impossible. The publication of new material could easily make things worse rather than better, since there is no guarantee that the new material will be consistent with what is already published.
Assuming we are want to get new people into the study of these languages, we may not have the luxury of waiting.
Rick Spell Nov 20, 2017 (03:49)
Rick Spell Nov 20, 2017 (03:58)
Tamas Ferencz Nov 20, 2017 (10:07)
Александр Запрягаев Nov 20, 2017 (10:48)
Tamas Ferencz Nov 20, 2017 (11:17)
Leonard W. Nov 22, 2017 (10:27)
But I would agree that we need something like Thorsten Renk's courses, but updated with the new things we have discovered in post-PE17 material. Thorsten's courses are great in the sense that they make things accessible for those who do not even know how to distinguish a verb from a noun. In fact, you would learn a lot about grammar just reading his course material!
Ицхак Пензев Nov 22, 2017 (13:09)
Leonard W. Nov 22, 2017 (22:34)
Tamas Ferencz Nov 22, 2017 (22:36)
Leonard W. Nov 22, 2017 (22:42)
Fiona Jallings Dec 09, 2017 (09:55)
But, more on the topic at hand:
1. We need more (good!) material accessible to laymen, in more languages than just English. We need people to do the difficult work of translating material so that the discourse on the languages isn't so trapped in English. So, this means that we have to think along the lines of how casual fans will engage with the languages.
2. Reference grammars need to catch up with the latest publications. A lot of the sources that I was going through for the research for my book have gotten really moldy. I've got my up-to-date Neo-Sindarin reference grammar (A Fan's Guide to Neo-Sindarin), but there needs to be at least one for Neo-Quenya too, as several people pointed out - all of the readily available textbooks/courses are pretty outdated at this point.
2a. There needs to be a published in book form, fully edited and annotated Neo-Quenya reference grammar. I can help publish, edit, or co-author a textbook for Neo-Quenya if need be - reach out in PM if you're interested. Interest in the scholarship is going to rise, so we need to make that scholarship more accessible.
3. I agree on the need for a more easily-updated, better filtered online dictionary or app for Neo-Elvish vocabulary. It will need a jury to accept/reject suggestions.
4. We need to get linguistic journals like I Lam Arth going again, so that our scholarship isn't so hidden away from the rest of the internet. This will also encourage in-depth articles on specific topics, something that I haven't seen much of lately.
5. We also need to gather and distribute links to each other's websites, so when a newbie stumbles on one corner of our community, they can quickly find their way to the scholar they need.
6. We need to have a way to archive our discussions here on Google+ in such a way that we can actually find them again, and reference them if need be.
7. We need some competent web-design. There's a lot of "GYAAAAAAH THE 90'S HAVE ATTACKED MY BROWSER AND NOW I CAN'T SEEEEE" in our websites. Most people will probably first find their way onto our websites via their phones. Speaking of vision-impairment - screen-readers work best with mobile-versions of websites. With the information organized and displayed better, people will be able to find what they need faster, and they'll continue to use our resources instead of some terrible Grelvish website that is really well-designed. So, we NEED competent web design. We really, REALLY do.
Leonard W. Dec 09, 2017 (15:56)
It has a contribution system, both for words and phrases, as well as a means for reviewers (or a “jury” as you call it) to approve quality contributions. The jury consists today only of myself and Elaran, as interest has been scarce. It is as if everyone wants to do their own thing.
I encourage you to check it out again! A lot has happened since you last checked it out. I can also give you administrator privileges, if you would like to join the “jury”!
Fiona Jallings Dec 09, 2017 (19:15)
Paul Strack Dec 09, 2017 (19:33)
To take a trivial example, we can’t have a language that uses both lá “yes” and lá “no”. It would be nonsensical.
elfdict.com - Aldaleon
If you are going to build a set of internally consistent languages, you are going to need to reject some of Tolkien’s words as well as have an approval process for adding new words. Right now I am planning on focusing on this kind of analysis as the “next phase” of Eldamo once I finish the basic data entry, though I think I probably need to finish the phonetic analysis of Sindarin and Quenya first.
Leonard W. Dec 09, 2017 (20:05)
I would need curators for that, though, and a basic understanding of what is consistent, and what is inappropriate.
Paul Strack Dec 09, 2017 (22:33)
I wish I could offer to contribute more directly, but realistically, my work on Eldamo is going to consume at least a few more years of my time. I really like to see other efforts in this arena, though, and elfdict.com is a lovely site.
Leonard W. Dec 10, 2017 (11:20)
I will put something together, and publish it to Github. It should be available in a few days, I believe.
Leonard W. Dec 11, 2017 (16:19)
Paul Strack Dec 19, 2017 (03:51)
Lúthien Merilin Dec 27, 2017 (12:09)
Sigh, it’s either running at breakneck speed, or standing still, it seems ...
Fiona Jallings Dec 27, 2017 (20:11)