Znu1bGjaHFD — G+ LoME Archive

Tamas Ferencz Feb 08, 2013 (15:51)

A well known passage:

Quetin cé lambínen firion ar *angelion, mal melme
lá samin, nán ve lamyala
calarus var tunga nande. Samin cé apacéno anna
ar hanyan cé ilye núli ar
ilya istya, ar sávienyanen polin cé rúma oronti,
mal melme lá samin, nánye
láqua. Antan cé ilya arwenya *pennoin, ar antan cé
hroanya urien, mal melme
la samin, napanis nin láqua. Melme voronwa ar raina; melme
ua milca. melme lá *tiuyaxe, lá antára.

If I speak with the languages of men and of angels,
but don't have love, I have
become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. [2] If I
have the gift of prophecy,
and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I
have all faith, so as to
remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing.
[3] If I dole out all my
goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be
burned, but don't have love,
it profits me nothing. [4] Love is patient and is
kind; love doesn't envy. Love
doesn't brag, is not proud.

*angel: loanword from Greek
*penno 'poor man'
*tiuyaxe 'blow oneself up, boast'

Björn Fromén Feb 08, 2013 (23:47)

Why the need of a loanword for 'angel', when we have the amply attested synonym ainu?

Tamas Ferencz Feb 09, 2013 (09:30)

I don't know, I somehow felt they were different. Christian-inspired mythology, but still not a direct parallel.

Ицхак Пензев Feb 10, 2013 (17:23)

HKF uses vala, (pl. vali)...

Björn Fromén Feb 12, 2013 (16:13)

A somewhat controversial choice, as he himself has admitted. True enough, the noun vala is glossed 'angelic power' in LOTR App.E; and the Valar ('Powers') were no doubt angels, but of a special kind or order: chief subcreators of Arda and rulers of its natural or elemental forces. As the biblical angels usually have other functions, I believe the general word ainu (glossed 'angelic spirit' in Etym.) would be a closer counterpart.

Ицхак Пензев Feb 13, 2013 (19:56)

I agree with you, Bjorn. That's controversal. It looks like there are several possible solutions. We can accept ainu, but how can we then render a general word for "g-d"? Eru and Ilúvatar are proper names, one cannot say something like *Erunya. Tamas' angel seems quite ok in this situation.
But I would prefer to discuss elaborating standards for a more common vocabulary. I don't speak much about angels everyday, you see ;)

Tamas Ferencz Feb 14, 2013 (09:14)

+Ицхак Пензев
oh for sure there are still gaping holes in our vocabulary and grammar, although we've been very-very lucky in the past ~5 years with all the publications we've had. When I started studying the languages about 12-13 years ago it almost felt like what we have with Sindarin these days...

Björn Fromén Feb 14, 2013 (17:05)

+Ицхак Пензев
If by 'my God' you mean something like 'the One and only, whom I believe in', surely *Erunya could be a possible equivalent.
As for 'god' = 'member of a polytheistic pantheon' I think vala would work fine. Cf what is said of the Valar in the Valaquenta: "Men have often called them gods". (As did Tolkien himself now and then, especially in earlier sources.)

Ицхак Пензев Feb 20, 2013 (16:52)

+Tamas Ferencz yeah, Sindarin still is headache. I'd better learn Cornish, he he… (it's kinda conlang, too, isn't it? ;) )

Ицхак Пензев Feb 20, 2013 (16:56)

+Björn Fromén not exactly. Bible texts sometimes use expressions like "Y-H-W-H, our God". That's what I meant.

Björn Fromén Feb 20, 2013 (23:34)

+Ицхак Пензев
Do you mean then that ainu should be reserved exclusively for translating phrases like that one? Surely the glosses 'holy one', 'angelic spirit', justify a wider use.

Ицхак Пензев Feb 22, 2013 (10:30)

Oh no, I didn't mean "exclusively". I just made a reference to Helge's usage of aino (sic! with personal -o rather than generic -u) in his I Vinya Vérë translations.