G+ LoME Archive
Feb 08, 2013 (15:51)
A well known passage:
Quetin cé lambínen firion ar *angelion, mal melme
lá samin, nán ve lamyala
calarus var tunga nande. Samin cé apacéno anna
ar hanyan cé ilye núli ar
ilya istya, ar sávienyanen polin cé rúma oronti,
mal melme lá samin, nánye
láqua. Antan cé ilya arwenya *pennoin, ar antan cé
hroanya urien, mal melme
la samin, napanis nin láqua. Melme voronwa ar raina; melme
ua milca. melme lá *tiuyaxe, lá antára.
If I speak with the languages of men and of angels,
but don't have love, I have
become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.  If I
have the gift of prophecy,
and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I
have all faith, so as to
remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing.
 If I dole out all my
goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be
burned, but don't have love,
it profits me nothing.  Love is patient and is
kind; love doesn't envy. Love
doesn't brag, is not proud.
*angel: loanword from Greek
*penno 'poor man'
*tiuyaxe 'blow oneself up, boast'
Feb 08, 2013 (23:47)
Why the need of a loanword for 'angel', when we have the amply attested synonym
Feb 09, 2013 (09:30)
I don't know, I somehow felt they were different. Christian-inspired mythology, but still not a direct parallel.
Feb 10, 2013 (17:23)
Feb 12, 2013 (16:13)
A somewhat controversial choice, as he himself has admitted. True enough, the noun
is glossed 'angelic power' in LOTR App.E; and the Valar ('Powers') were no doubt angels, but of a special kind or order: chief subcreators of Arda and rulers of its natural or elemental forces. As the biblical angels usually have other functions, I believe the general word
(glossed 'angelic spirit' in Etym.) would be a closer counterpart.
Feb 13, 2013 (19:56)
I agree with you, Bjorn. That's controversal. It looks like there are several possible solutions. We can accept
, but how can we then render a general word for "g-d"?
are proper names, one cannot say something like
seems quite ok in this situation.
But I would prefer to discuss elaborating standards for a more common vocabulary. I don't speak much about angels everyday, you see ;)
Feb 14, 2013 (09:14)
oh for sure there are still gaping holes in our vocabulary and grammar, although we've been very-very lucky in the past ~5 years with all the publications we've had. When I started studying the languages about 12-13 years ago it almost felt like what we have with Sindarin these days...
Feb 14, 2013 (17:05)
If by 'my God' you mean something like 'the One and only, whom I believe in', surely *
could be a possible equivalent.
As for 'god' = 'member of a polytheistic pantheon' I think
would work fine. Cf what is said of the Valar in the Valaquenta: "Men have often called them gods". (As did Tolkien himself now and then, especially in earlier sources.)
Feb 20, 2013 (16:52)
yeah, Sindarin still is headache. I'd better learn Cornish, he he… (it's kinda conlang, too, isn't it? ;) )
Feb 20, 2013 (16:56)
not exactly. Bible texts sometimes use expressions like "Y-H-W-H, our God". That's what I meant.
Feb 20, 2013 (23:34)
Do you mean then that
should be reserved exclusively for translating phrases like that one? Surely the glosses 'holy one', 'angelic spirit', justify a wider use.
Feb 22, 2013 (10:30)
Oh no, I didn't mean "exclusively". I just made a reference to Helge's usage of
(sic! with personal
rather than generic
) in his
I Vinya Vérë