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Tamas Ferencz Oct 13, 2016 (12:39)

Sindarinists: what do you make of the (plural) forms athof, athab paired with the "usual" 1st sg athon on p167 of PE22? Ephemeral variants?

Александр Запрягаев Oct 13, 2016 (12:52)

Quite the opposite: the only forms fitting the great revamp of omentielvo. Here b is obviously paired with a due to its length stopped by a following cluster; I reconstruct it as * kw, with the second-person marker paired with first plural inclusive for emphasis and/or phonetic reasons (cf. Q. nque from N+K+W). The whole system could be fitted like that:



Tamas Ferencz Oct 13, 2016 (14:07)

+Александр Запрягаев hmmm. "second person marker paired with first plural inclusive'?

Lőrinczi Gábor Oct 13, 2016 (15:59)

Well, f seems to be the 1st p. pl. verbal suffix, while b might be either the inclusive form (if f represents the exclusive) or the 1st p. dual ending. (Note that the final a of atha- becomes o in athof (as in athon) but not in athab.) It is a question, however, whether "classical" sindarin kept duality and/or clusivity or these had been lost.

Anyway, considering the uncertainty in the meaning of these suffixes, I, for my part, continue to adhere to the usage of m.

Tamas Ferencz Oct 13, 2016 (16:17)

+Ekin Gören cheers

Ekin Gören Oct 13, 2016 (16:24)

+Lőrinczi Gábor
"CE: *lindâ-me -> *linna-ve -> *linna-v -> S: **linnaf"

I think that Tolkien changed his mind on these suffixes, perhaps with the great revamp of omentielvo as Alexander puts it. Clearly, we see the (old) -m suffix as (new) -f [v] in PE22. The two of us have been using these for a year now.

Lőrinczi Gábor Oct 13, 2016 (16:43)

+Ekin Gören And then we see gohenam not *goheno(/a)f in Ae Adar Nín and avam not *avo(/a)f in Q&E. :)

Ekin Gören Oct 13, 2016 (17:19)

Indeed, and there are many other examples with -m, yet athof and athab postdate all, as we see them in LVS, 1969.

Lőrinczi Gábor Oct 13, 2016 (17:45)

+Ekin Gören 1969? Ok, I remembered that it's from around 1950.

Fiona Jallings Oct 13, 2016 (21:20)

I have adopted -(o)f and -b, because I can see the history behind them. I also use -nc for "you and I".

The suffixes that come from double consonants, -b from -kwe, -nc from -nki made the long A lose its length, which is why we have Athab versus Athof, Athon, Athol.

The earlier suffix, -m, assumed a history of -mme, which Tolkien scraped later on, deciding that the duplicated consonant was a Quenya-only innovation for the dual plural. That would mean that the ancient suffix was -me, which makes it -(o)f in Sindarin, and it is confirmed in PE22, so I use the later system. Source: VT49/51