Post aQBXFxzQnB6

Tamas Ferencz May 29, 2018 (00:33)

The next +#1000words entry up for discussion is example.
My first idea is *hókilme "outtake, selection".

Robert Reynolds May 31, 2018 (13:19)

Looking at the etymology, I like *hókilme for “selection, outtake”. Is it also suitable for “model, precedent, something to be imitated, illustration, template”? I’m unsure if the conflux is an Anglicism.

Tamas Ferencz May 31, 2018 (13:49)

+Robert Reynolds for 'model' as in 'role model, one to be followed, imitated, template' perhaps we could look at KHIL (*hilyuvaina [emma/kanta]?) or the neologism véta- 'compare, liken, imitate' which was created (on Discord I think) to replace EQ sesta-). *hókilme could remain for 'example, selection, representative item'

Tamas Ferencz May 31, 2018 (13:51)

or follow the etymology of 'model' and perhaps use lesta "measure" somehow

Robert Reynolds May 31, 2018 (15:12)

+Tamas Ferencz That future passive participle construct is interesting: I’m unused to thinking in those terms, but it fits very well! Indeed, it’s basically a passive analog of the etymology of ‘precedent < preceding (person, thing)’. Perhaps it could be used with dative: hilyuvaina mon “(lit.ish) someone who is for (the purpose of) being followed (in the future)” and likewise for other nouns (emma, kanta, arta) or pronouns or even elliptical/nominal hilyuvainan.

The corresponding Q active form may be *nópataila (with dative) “(someone who is) (for the purpose of) preceding; (lit.) (for the purpose of) walking before” from *nópata- in Eldamo.

For *véta-, perhaps passive *vétauvaina (with dative) “for being compared (with) (in the future), (in order) to be compared (with) (in the future)” and active *vétaila “for (the purpose of) comparing, likening, imitating”. The former feels a little long to me but otherwise they seem fitting.

lesta may work as “model, measure, standard”. We don’t seem to have etymology for it and it is somewhat old, but the phrase in which it is attested uses it in the sense “(specified) amount, degree, quantity”. I’m not sure if this would typically be used for ‘example’.

I agree that *hókilme would remain for the ‘example’ senses “selection, outtake, representative item”. Nearly all the above uses are common in English for ‘example’ and some ways to distinguish between them in Q seems appropriate.

Tamas Ferencz May 31, 2018 (19:50)

+Robert Reynolds using the future (passive) particle is very familiar to me as it is a feature of Hungarian, e.g. ppl "to be done" = "task", "to die" = "mortal", etc.

Tamas Ferencz May 31, 2018 (19:54)

*nópata for some reason looks funny to me.
Perhaps one could simply use a verbal derivative of the preposition(al root), like anya, unta, orta, núta etc. *nóya, nóta?

Robert Reynolds Jun 01, 2018 (15:23)

+Tamas Ferencz Such usage of participles seems elegant! It fits adjectivally and nominally. Translating future passive participles to English is awkward not only because of their absence but also the coincidence of passive and past participles: future passive phrases look similar to past ones. Thankfully, we can often translate them into Quenya instead!

To me, *nóya- (intr. form. vb.) suggests an allative meaning “to go forward (of time); to go backward (of space)” and nóta- (caus. vb.) “to send forward (time)/backward (space); (lit.) to cause to go forward (time)/backward (space)” by analogy with orya- “to rise; (lit.) to go upward”, orta- “to raise; (lit.) to cause to go upward”, and likewise for núya-, núta-, arta.

Etymologically, ‘to precede’ is comparative locative “to go before, in front of (time or space)”. This is closely related: *√NO (with direct opposite √OPO) is glossed non-comparative locative “front (time); back (space)” and comparative “before, in front of, earlier than (time); after, in back of, behind (space)”. Since *√NO (unlike PIE ‘*per-’ > English ‘fore’ with locative ‘before’) doesn’t combine these meanings and √PĀ/APA (with variant epe) “back (time or space), late (time); in back of, after, behind (time or space), later (time)” does combine their opposites, perhaps we need a word/root meaning “front (time or space), early (time); in front of, before, ahead (time or space), earlier (time)”. Such a word/root would be used for describing the Eldarin perspective on the Great Journey, East to West, Anar moving throughout the day, and the progression of life in general and therefore seems very appropriate and would give, with a suitable formation, ‘to precede’.

Tamas Ferencz Jun 01, 2018 (15:42)

+Robert Reynolds well due to the Elvish time concept I can't think of a root that would give us that meaning. I remember before PE17 one tried to use NIB to construct words meaning 'in front of', but that's hardly usable for us now.
There's the root KHYĀ in PE22 with no derivatives given, but it's uncertain whether that could be applied to time and space alike. - Eldamo : Primitive Elvish : KHYĀ

Tamas Ferencz Jun 01, 2018 (15:45)

At any rate, I will add *hókilme to the 'example' entry, for the time being.

Robert Reynolds Jun 01, 2018 (17:53)

+Tamas Ferencz I’ve apparently misinterpreted the Eldarin perspective. I had been thinking along the lines that moving forward through life (Rómello Númenna) was described, for instance, by: the Vanyar/Minyar were the earliest (past-most) to depart from Cuiviénen, earliest to arrive in Aman, the spatially foremost during the Journey, arta; so ‘front (spatial)’ ~ ‘early, past, before (temporal)’. In English as I use it, ‘before’ is quite strongly associated with the past (earlier) and much less so with its apparent literal meaning “in the fore, in front”.

Rereading Tolkien’s description of Eldarin perspective in VT49 as quoted by +Paul Strack in an analysis posted two months ago, Eldarin perspective actually associates ‘before; (lit.) in front (temporal)’ as being in the future: Anar rises early (~past) in the spatial back and moves toward the spatial front and the future, arta. +Lokyt L. alluded to this semantic confusion in English (and apparently many other languages) in a comment on Paul’s post (though apparently without being confused, as I was). Tolkien’s metaphor (the Eldarin perspective) is beautiful and elegant, perhaps more so than my initial interpretation, or at least more straightforward: ‘back’ ~ ‘past’, ‘front’ ~ ‘future’.

I must be even more tired than I realized to have wandered so far astray, from both accuracy and the original topic ‘example’. Hopefully, I have it straight this time.

Ицхак Пензев Jun 03, 2018 (16:29)

HKF used epemma in his NQNT.