Post byDaBiSCc8z

Tamas Ferencz Jul 06, 2015 (11:54)

I am opening this thread to make note of words from Parma Eldalamberon 22 that - I think - have been hitherto unattested. I have not checked them against older sources yet so feel free to refute them if you think they have been known.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 06, 2015 (12:03)

Q uphto "pit" p50
Q 'anne "thought, purpose" p51
Q psára "peel" P51
Q ksenna "odour" p51

Tamas Ferencz Jul 06, 2015 (12:09)

Q ksarã "yearn, long for" p98
Q lu- "it is heavy, sad" p102

Tamas Ferencz Jul 06, 2015 (12:20)

Q raf- "snatch" p102
Q lah- "kick" p102
Q pis- "spit" p103
Q kav- "be able to" p102
Q ton- "knock" p103
Q mun- "groan, moan > used to express dislike" p103
Q ol- "grow, become" - this was attested, but now with a new meaning!!

Tamas Ferencz Jul 06, 2015 (12:27)

Q nur- "grow dark, be dark" p103
Q lauta "abound" p103
Q nem- "appear, seem"
Q alanwa "fully grown, adult, mature" p112
Q psar- "rub" p113
Q hlik- "creep" p113

Tamas Ferencz Jul 06, 2015 (12:28)

Q hor- "wait for" p113
However, on p116 the verb appears (in inflected forms) as hop-

Paul Strack Jul 06, 2015 (16:32)

Psar "rub" previously appeared in PE18/94

Jan Sorondil Slaný Jul 06, 2015 (16:39)

Hantëanyel, uan samë Parma Eldalamberon ar quettar sinë nemir olë márë.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 06, 2015 (17:56)

Matt Dinse Jul 07, 2015 (03:23)

raf- appears in PE19:44,89, and hor-/hop- should probably be hora-/hopa- given the examples and derivation class. At any rate, those are from the 40s ones, and the 1950 document is back to skorā so I'd (personally) stick with hora-.

I hope you don't mind me continuing the list. Here's the list of additions I've made, separated by the sources. Some of them are similar to what we've had or speculated, but not attested, so I'll quote those.

Q opto "back" (50)
Q hana "post" (50)
Q tsette "fly" (50)

Q lúpe "plume" (63)
N penn, pl. pinn "Elf" in i-phinn "the Elves" (67, cp. penedh)

Q e "it, he, she" (found throughout 40s texts)
Q tutulla- "to keep on coming (and going)" (95)
Q kesta- "to ask" (97), probably just related to (what became?) √KETH in PE17
Q ōmata- "eat away, devour, corrode" (98)
Q telu- "roof in" (98)

All the various if/suppose words ai (cp. aiquen), qe (cp. later qui), au, auve, aiqe, en, enai, īte, aite, las/laza, iqui, quíta etc. on 97-8,120-2,138-40,158

Q tele "mean, intend" (99,118)
Q núresse "at night" (100, deleted)
several deleted reduplicates like tithilla "twinkle" (100) later not-deleted on 112
√RUK "pluck" (102)
√WAD "err, stray" (102, maybe related to √ŊWAÐA?)
Q pis- (√PITH) "spit", cp. piste- in PE13:163
Q orhal- "exalt, raise up" (103,108), cp. S orchal
Q ehtelu- "well, bubble out" (103)
Q tatalla- "marvel, admire, wonder at (the excellence of)" (108) from √TAL "appraise, esteem, value"
All the verbal nouns and adjectives on  110-111, though I don't know if their formations would survive into later Quenya (cf. 137-8), though tempting. I'm tending to not list those, or the gerunds in ére/áre.
Q farina "'fugitive,' hunted" and farino "a hunted man, outlaw, fugitive" (111)
Q tithilla- (√THIL) "twinkle" (112), also "glisten" in the 1950 document
Q qeqetta- "repeat, keep on saying" (112)
Q kukumba- "keep on bowing = to nod repeatedly" (112)
Q nak-, √NDAK "*hate" in a phrase "we hate them", since "slay/kill" was √NDAG and nahta- on 102,115. nak- "kill" shows up on 120.
Q sapsarra- "keep on rubbing, fray away" (113)
Q sisilla- "glitter (white) (113)
Q tarki- "to trouble" (113, deleted)
u verbs on 114:
Q liru- "sing gaily"
ektelu- "gush forth"
Q seru- "settle on, sit or lie down, come to rest on"
Q hamu- "sit down, take a seat"
Q tolu- "stand up, get up, leave one's seat"
(ek)koiru "come to life"
tuilu "bud, open (of flowers and leaves)"
karan-yā, Q karanya "make red, redden" (114,117)
Q ampanóta- "build, erect a (large) building / construct (a building)" (114,118)
Q kelya "(it) sends running down = it rains" (114)
Q palka- "to beat (flat)" (114, cp. 30s palpa-?)
Q nasto "animal" (111,116)
Q farna "quarry, prey" (116)
Q sinar "today" (116)
Q hinna "still" in sentence "the tree is still growing" (116)
Q niñqinta- "grow pale" (114,117)
Q altankanta- "to become unfixed" (117)
Q ampanotalea "architectural*
Q ampanotaste "architecture" might meet the same end as others on 110-111
Q sa "that" as in the Merin sentence (without context before this)
Q psar- as "fret" (119)
Q mólome "hard work" (119,120,123), "burden" (124)
Q tyaz- "like" (119,120)
Q pa "about" in sentence "I am not talking about eating" (119)
Q úmahta, úmahtale "nuisance" (119)
Q fasta- "to please" (119,124)
Q kesta- "ask" shows up in this era (120-2+) as well, and in 1950's (138)
Q aldaryas "Monday" (121)
Q menelyas "Tuesday" (121)
Q "too" (in "I come too / I came too"), cp. word for "both"? (121-2)
We have emphatic forms ette (for e, suffix tta, "his" etta, cp. le, -lla, ella for you/your) and inye (for ni) on 121, but I'm not sure how interested people are in 40s pronouns, like nyé "me", since I've skipped the ones other than e.
Q í, íqa, illume, íqallume "when, whenever" (121)
Q parka "thirsty" (compare "dry") (122)
Q évea and tulurya "future" (different nuances) show up in conjugations of , which may no longer be relevant in later decades. Other forms include: ëaste "being, essence" (cp. all the other problematic ste verbal nouns), enwa "existent, real, actually found in the primary world, true", enna "a fact", enno "a person" (fem. ennie) (123)
Q manima "of what kind" (interrog.) (124)
Q malka "how great?" (124)
Q manar "who" (124)
Q intin "they" (124)
Q masse "where (interr.)" (124,126, previously theorized but unattested)
Q manna "whither" (124) " "
Q mallo "whence" (124) " "
Q nan "again" (124)
Q nóloa "yesteryear" (124)
Q enta "then (future)" (124)
Q enar "tomorrow" (124)
Q elloa "next year" (124)
Q raiqa "angry" (124)
Q sinar "this morning" (124)
Q aiano "stranger" (124)
Q nairea "sorrowful" and naire "sorrow" (124), in lunga nairenen "fraught with sorrow"
Q kanya "wise" (124)
Q kato "afterwards" (124)
Q kata tulma "after (the event)" (124)
Q alwara "useless" (124)
Q kim- "light on, find, come by" (probably used the same as hir later on) (125), with kim- and tuv- appearing in the earlier texts (tuv- also in LotR and later)
Q oia- "to live, pass one's days" (125)
Q niksi "fish (plural)" (125)
Q enyasse "there far away" (125)
Q har- "dwell, abide, reside permanently" √KHAD (125)
Q unta- "come down" (125)
Q to tarassi "in the hills" (125, I don't quite understand this form, though possibly related to to "on, [???] above, on [???]" in 168)
Q landa, lanna "a plain" (125-6) from √LAD
Q Tiristemindon "Minas Tirith" (125)
Q ser- (√SED) "properly 'to rest, repose' [...] but in Q frequently used = 'stay, tarry, stop, be for a while, at the moment" (125)
Q sinan "*at the present"? (125)
Q Arkimbelesse "at Rivendell" (locative) (125)
√THAR "stand" (126)
Q lat- "lie (of land or regions), be extended, stretch, be situated (of an area" (126)
Q Veleriande "Beleriand" (cp. Malariando) (126)
Q isse "where" (relative) (126)
Q naikea "cruel" (126)
A page listing many roots and irregular verbs (and Q "Rivendell" forms) found on 126, many previously unattested: all deleted, but some have shown up in the main texts anyway, like unta- and kav-.

Reduplicates like tutulla, mammata, tithilla/sisilla continue to show up in the next document (c. 1950), so I won't quote the old ones again.
Q en, enya future adverbs, as in en i matinye "I shall eat then, soon" (131)
Words in Q and T related to "soon/anon" from adverbial (132)
Q peles-, pelsa- "fences round" (134)
Inceptives in s (different in 1969's): tañkās- "become firm, settle down", niñkwis- "(begin to) grow pale", kalas- "begin to shine, get light", talas- "begin to slip down" (135)
matjā- "feed" (135)
Once again, the u verbs and their older forms:
sedu  "go to rest", liru "sing gaily", kelu "well forth, begin to flow", tolu "stand up", khamu "sit down", koiru "come to life", kheru "lord it over, be master of, own" (135)
thillu, thilnu "shine out, appear (of stars etc.), et-koiru/lu "come to life", et-kuinu "awake, wake up", kainu "lie down", tuilu "open (of buds, flowers)", contrasting koita/kuita/kaita. (136)
We have (differentiated) √TEL "close, end, complete" vs. teles "come at rear, end a line or series" vs. telu "cover in, roof over, roof in" (135)
aumata- "eats away, corrodes" (136)
Q matta "food" (from matnā) (136)

Late (1969):
Q lan "while" (147)
Q arkanwa "throne" (147)
Q tauvar "endure" (possibly future tense, pl.) (147)
various before/after words/roots (147)
Q tarhanwa "'throne', high seat" (148)
many unglossed words presumably related to √KHAD "sit", including (Sindarin?) haðwa "to seat" (148).
Q mai- "have, possess" (deleted, 148)
Q kimba "edge, brink (espec. that of [?cliff ?or] fall in rock or stone)." (148)
Q kíma "edge of a cutting weapon / tool" (148)
Q kirmakin (im-) "knife-edge" (148)
Q tengwakilme "spelling" (148)
Words for "can, may" from √KURU (none given), √NAYA (hence nai), ebe- (151)
Q auta- "possess, own", derivatives auvie "possession (abstract)" and aura "a possession or thing owned" (151)
S caw- "taste, select, choose" (now from √KJAW and not KJAB) (152)

S dom (pl. dym) "blind" = Q lomba, from √DOM "dark" (153)
Q "_e_, neuter, is an indefinite pronominal element corresponding to E. 'one' (neut[er] 'it, a thing'); a later development, to make the purely impersonal verb form more precise and dist[inguish] it from the bare infinitive, as is shown by its preceding the verb" >> mo

All from 155:
Q laista "not-knowing, ignorance"
Q laistila, laistea "ignorant"
Q lamate "fasting, a fast"
√SKEY "pass"
√KUB "hide, secrete"
Q χiéte "passing, impermanent"
Q tirila "watching (something)" vs. tiríte "watchful, vigilant"
Q karaite "active, busy"
Q karaitie "activity, business"
Q koloite "capable of bearing, tolerant (of), enduring"
Q koloitie "endurance, staunchness, fortitude"
√NEPH? = "breathe?" in:
Q nefíti kuimar "air-breathing animals" and yulunefíte "amphibious"
Q kuvoite "hiding, secretive, used of both hoarding things, and not revealing one's mind or purposes (cf. pekkuvo 'nut-hider', squirrel), sometimes in a sinister sense 'treacherous' (cf. S gurgof, "traitor" [...] Q órikuvoite, uncommunicative, keeping one's own counsel (not necessarily sinister)."
Q ankárima "very doable, easy"
Q nótima "countable, limited in number (weight or measure), frequently used espec. colloquially in sense 'moderate (in amount), some few, several'"
√PUL "pour" (presumably, in púlima "pourable")

Q*kelima* "fluent" (156, among other verbal adjectives from known roots)
Q anya- "go to, reach" (157) (also "arrive at, reach" in 163)
tensi "it is still here / is it here yet"
tenta "it was still waiting / has it come yet"
Q quista- "suppose, inquire"(158)
Q rëa "single" and rië "only" from √ER "single" (like "day in calendar") (158)
Q Erulingar = Rohirrim/Eorlingas (rejected, with mention that the real Rohanese (phew, finally attested?) form was þuron, þorunahim, Sindarized as Thoronion, Thoronhîn[?] and Q Soronildi, the latter associated with "eagle" words (158-9). Erulingar shows up again in 166.
Q uhta- "dislike, feel disgust with, avoid as painful or nasty" (160) from √UG "dislike"
S oer (ogra < ugrā) "nasty", Q úra (160)
Q itas "in that case" (162)
S anw "gift" (Q anna, anwa)
Q indu- "to will, do on purpose" (165)
Q induinen "purpose" (165)
Q turindo "purposeful mind, strong-will"(165)
Q turindura "done necessarily"(165)
S đa "there is"(165)
S nîð = Q níre, and the other NID/ATHA forms we've discussed
S natha- "bring help to, save, rescue" (166)
aþaro "an ally, assistant or satellite"(166)
Q aþumo "'good companion', friend at need, friend with shared interests, colleague" (166)
Q mekin "please (interjection) (166)
Q ulo "rain" (167)
Q uluva "it is going to rain, it will rain" (167)
Q urra "bad" (168)
Q si loa "this year" (168)
Q umbe (e.g. umbe nin) "imminence/threat" = "premonition, fear, unwelcome expectation" (168)

I've probably missed some, and the various revisions of words related to aþa needs more detail that I didn't go into, but that's what I've come up with for now. Maybe another time I can cover the ula, ste, nde, re forms.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 07, 2015 (09:06)

+Matt Dinse
ah, thanks for saving me from some hard work! :)
I agree with an earlier statement of +Paul Strack : this issue is amazing. We get
- discussion of conditional
- discussion of questions
- more verbal inflections than we ever expected
- discussion of negation, which finally seems to settle towards AL/LA versus UGU
- a Sindarin copula, or something very like it
- pointers towards what aen was (I think)
- squirrel! :)
- proverbs! more example sentences (from quite disparate linguistic periods though) than I've ever seen together in one place

Tamas Ferencz Jul 07, 2015 (09:06)

+Jan Sorondil Slaný
aþa! (but of course!)

Tamas Ferencz Jul 07, 2015 (10:01)

Q þak- apparently "close" in the sentence Á þak' i fende, mekin "close the door, please!" p166

James Coish Jul 08, 2015 (23:02)

>>Q psára "peel" P51
>>Q ksenna "odour" p51
Does this attest initial combinations of "ps" and "ks (x)"?

James Coish Jul 08, 2015 (23:10)

>>Q tsette "fly" (50)
Oh and "ts"? 
BTW I am so excited to have a word for "squirrel"!

Tamas Ferencz Jul 09, 2015 (00:25)

+James Coish yes, and note also the participle xiéte +Matt Dinse​ quoted above

Paul Strack Jul 09, 2015 (01:13)

Those initial compinations may be Old Quenya. From what I remember from PE19, those combination were originally allowed, but eventually were prefixed with a vowel, I think iks- and ups-

Matt Dinse Jul 09, 2015 (05:14)

+Paul Strack, PE18:89 notes (TQ2, early 1950s) that "A notable feature of Quenya was the frequent reversal of sp, sk (sph/skh) initially and medially to ps, ks, the latter (with rare ts) being tolerated initial combinations in Q. down to end of Classical period." P.94 has "In Quenya initial groups ty, ny, ps, ks appeared as developments of ky, ñy, sp, sk. But being established they were used in new formations. Thus Q tyal- "play" as a variation on tal- (not kal-!); psar 'rub' (which is not developed from CE √SPAR 'hunt')."

PE19's Outline of Phonetic Development (late 30s or 40s, p.36) has "Thus at an early period initial sp, sk (not st) became ps, ks and these combinations endured in classical [Parmaquesta] and were the most usual representations of Eldarin sp-, sk-. In [Tarquesta] though the spelling is retained ps, ks initial are commonly rendered by simple s or ps, ks > ups, iks."

PE19's Outline of Phonology (1950s, p.78) says that "In TQ colloquially ps, ks were commonly rendered ups, iks (see below)."

In both chronological stages of PE19's relevant notes, original ips was revised to ups.

PE22's The Feanorian Alphabet A′ (probably early to mid-1940s) notes "The [Tarquesta] colloquial pronunciation of initial ps, ts, ks as s is never 'correctly' represented as [s tengwa_] (though this occasionally appears)."

I didn't check yet if PE18's earlier TQ1 has anything on ps, ks, ts, since it's getting late.

Tamas Ferencz Jul 09, 2015 (08:51)

OK so pronunciation of all those is [s], but the spelling can remain classical, which is handy to differentiate e.g. psára from sára (bitter) at least in writing.

Hjalmar Holm Jul 14, 2015 (11:53)

Was pekkuvo the squirrel both literally and metaforically, and S gurgof a counterpart only in the metaforical sense? So in Q pek is "nut", since the latter part of the word clearly is some "hiding" word?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 14, 2015 (14:28)

+Hjalmar Holm
 S gurgof is not "squirrel"; it is the Sindarin cognate of the Quenya adjective órikuvoite "uncommunicative, keeping his own counsel"; Tolkien gives the etymon as *gōr(i)kubā; the root is KUB (NB the same root in an earlier version of the essay meant 'bow')

Hjalmar Holm Jul 14, 2015 (20:03)

+Tamas Ferencz Any etymon and root for pekkuvo?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 14, 2015 (20:10)

+Hjalmar Holm just KUB

Александр Запрягаев Jul 16, 2015 (21:45)

+Tamas Ferencz Just *pegof for Sindarin? Seems not as epic as its Quenya counterpart…

Hjalmar Holm Jul 16, 2015 (23:28)

So perhaps *peg, "nut", as a counterpart to the perceived Q pek "nut" in "nuthider"?

Tamas Ferencz Jul 16, 2015 (23:50)

+Hjalmar Holm​ it could be Q *pekko antd then pekkuvo with a haplology

Hjalmar Holm Jul 17, 2015 (01:29)

+Tamas Ferencz That actually sounds more likely. So a S cognate could end in another consonant maybe.

Александр Запрягаев Jul 17, 2015 (16:39)

+Tamas Ferencz +Hjalmar Holm But a haplology of commpounds belongs to CE times, cf. tuilelindō > tuilindō, Q. tuilindo, S. tuilinn; that would not alter S. form of 'squirrel'.

Matt Dinse Aug 05, 2015 (06:12)

pekkuvo could also use some kind of assimilation, e.g. pét + kuvo, if "nut" was formed like "foot" without some kind of suffix. I think the S. would be pechof?

Hjalmar Holm Aug 06, 2015 (15:07)

Then *ped + cof? I find it easier to believe in a homonymity between "nut" and "small spot, dot" than "nut" and "to speak", and there is still the possibility that Tamas spoke of, Q *pekko.

Matt Dinse Aug 08, 2015 (04:52)

I have no clue whether it would be √PEK or √PET. Both would produce final -t in Quenya anyway, though assimilated in this case, but different versions in Sindarin. pekko could also very well be the case (pech?) - I don't know. It's too unclear without further hints. Pêd, pîd, pêg, pîg, pech ... I can't say.