Post dEnwmWV3vN2

Remy Corbin Jan 22, 2016 (12:51)

Concernig giving and thanking (and approaching).

For some time when I think of Eruhantale “thanksgiving”, and similarity of Elvish words expressing “giving” and “thanking”, I remind myself of the polish translation of Torah by Rabbi Sacha Pecaric.
He had chosen to translate the Hebrew word as "giving" [Polish "oddanie" meaning "giving back, returning" but also "devotion"] which is "getting closer" instead of "sacrifice" which is "offered". And that’s how he explains such a solution: "The word has the stem that most precisely can be translated as "get closer", "approach". [...] In verbal aspect of the word I deemed most appropriate "approximation", and in substantial aspect "giving". "Giving" [...]is a return to God his property. [...] "Giving" expresses the feelings of commitment, zeal, submission. [...] «Sacrifice» means a donation or even a contribution [...] These connotations are [...] distant from the meaning of the word [...] [and] the idea associated with i.e. givings: [...] that something is being returned to God, and [...] that it is a spiritual closeness - the two aspects [...]are present in the word "giving "".

That seems to me surprisingly analogical to NA/ANA, HAN, and all the: an, na, anta-, antha-, anna, -nna, hantale. What do you think?

Tamas Ferencz Jan 22, 2016 (13:44)

That there is a semantic link in Q(u)enya between the act of thanking and giving, and that a similar link exists in Hebrew, makes sense. (Although the link is not universal; English thank is linked to think, and in Hungarian köszön has the meaning "thank" and "greet".

What's rather interesting to me that this rather common and important verb is so scarcely attested in the Elvish corpus; as far as I know even the usually so helpful and rich Gnomish corpus does not contain anything like it; all we have is Eruhantale and the root HAN as glossed in VT43. We don't even know whether Tolkien had *hantale in mind when he glossed HAN (although it is certainly possible).

Remy Corbin Jan 22, 2016 (16:57)

In Polish DAwać means 'to give', odDAnie - 'devotion' and przyDAwać - increase - very elvish :-). 

Remy Corbin Jan 22, 2016 (17:12)

I've got a crazy idea: is it possible that there is only one verb anta- meaning both 'give' and 'thank', and h in eruhantale is only intrusive consonant put there to avoid hiatus?

Александр Запрягаев Jan 22, 2016 (18:50)

+Remi Korben He wrote Eruontari 'Mother of God_ around the same period (second half of 50s), so — no. The thing is, Tolkien changed his mind about the initial H of Eldarin. When he introduced that basic element in a revision to Outline of Phonology he made it remain in Q and vanish in all Telerin; however, in QE it already remains consistently both in Q and T. There is little doubt that when writing Eruhantale in ca. 1959 (and maybe even when retyping it in 1965) he had no problems with its derivation from HAN and sufficient difference from anta which was consistently from AN 'allative' since the Etym., except maybe the obvious semantic parallel. The waters have muddled when Tolkien started seriously considering around 1968 (and often assuming as a fact) that H remains in Telerin only. See HENET, hor etc. in Notes on Óre discussion, PE22 and similar. (However, he did not make a conscious shift! In LVS13 he reminds himself that H in Quenya does remain [to disobey himself in the next phrase]. He just wanted more sources for Q vocalic beginning — and got them. A parallel problem was that he noticed: _anta_could only mean something like 'send' if treated lightly; so in mid-60s he reshapes it from AM (Comparative in Eldarin), and in 1969 apparently forgets that.
Actually, I keep believing in H remaining (too many things crumble without that) and hence in hanta 'thank' separate from anta < amta 'give'. Sindarin might be antha, anthant for former and antha, aun for latter; or even antha, anthant vs. an, aun which I favour. After all, in the batch of Comparative, and, Ambar Tolkien allows himself many minor abandoned controversies in commentary, such as suddenly making men 'go, proceed' into menta for no reason and eliminating any word for 'send' by wiping anta simultaneously. Hence — I do take his anha there lightly, as a remnant of a previous concept.

Hjalmar Holm Jan 22, 2016 (22:06)

Still, there are Sindarin words beginning in ha- still. Is it only in this particular case initial "h" disappears?

Александр Запрягаев Jan 23, 2016 (10:08)

+Hjalmar Holm That's not the point. Sindarin initial h is only from KH and SK and was like that as early as the Comparative Tables.