G+ LoME Archive
Jan 22, 2016 (12:51)
Concernig giving and thanking (and approaching).
For some time when I think of Eruhantale “thanksgiving”, and similarity of Elvish words expressing “giving” and “thanking”, I remind myself of the polish translation of Torah by Rabbi Sacha Pecaric.
He had chosen to translate the Hebrew word
as "giving" [Polish "oddanie" meaning "giving back, returning" but also "devotion"] which is "getting closer" instead of "sacrifice" which is "offered". And that’s how he explains such a solution: "The word
has the stem
that most precisely can be translated as "get closer", "approach". [...] In verbal aspect of the word
I deemed most appropriate "approximation", and in substantial aspect "giving". "Giving" [...]is a return to God his property. [...] "Giving" expresses the feelings of commitment, zeal, submission. [...] «Sacrifice» means a donation or even a contribution [...] These connotations are [...] distant from the meaning of the word
[...] [and] the idea associated with
i.e. givings: [...] that something is being returned to God, and [...] that it is a spiritual closeness - the two aspects [...]are present in the word "giving "".
That seems to me surprisingly analogical to NA/ANA, HAN, and all the: an, na, anta-, antha-, anna, -nna, hantale. What do you think?
Jan 22, 2016 (13:44)
That there is a semantic link in Q(u)enya between the act of thanking and giving, and that a similar link exists in Hebrew, makes sense. (Although the link is not universal; English
is linked to
, and in Hungarian
has the meaning "thank" and "greet".
What's rather interesting to me that this rather common and important verb is so scarcely attested in the Elvish corpus; as far as I know even the usually so helpful and rich Gnomish corpus does not contain anything like it; all we have is
and the root HAN as glossed in VT43. We don't even know whether Tolkien had
in mind when he glossed HAN (although it is certainly possible).
Jan 22, 2016 (16:57)
means 'to give',
- 'devotion' and
- increase - very elvish :-).
Jan 22, 2016 (17:12)
I've got a crazy idea: is it possible that there is only one verb
meaning both 'give' and 'thank', and
is only intrusive consonant put there to avoid hiatus?
Jan 22, 2016 (18:50)
'Mother of God_ around the same period (second half of 50s), so — no. The thing is, Tolkien changed his mind about the initial H of Eldarin. When he introduced that basic element in a revision to
Outline of Phonology
he made it remain in Q and vanish in all Telerin; however, in QE it already remains consistently both in Q and T. There is little doubt that when writing
in ca. 1959 (and maybe even when retyping it in 1965) he had no problems with its derivation from HAN and sufficient difference from
which was consistently from AN 'allative' since the Etym., except maybe the obvious semantic parallel. The waters have muddled when Tolkien started seriously considering around 1968 (and often assuming as a fact) that H remains
in Telerin only
. See HENET,
Notes on Óre
discussion, PE22 and similar. (However, he did not make a conscious shift! In LVS13 he reminds himself that H in Quenya does remain [to disobey himself in the next phrase]. He just wanted more sources for Q vocalic beginning — and got them. A parallel problem was that he noticed: _anta_could only mean something like 'send' if treated lightly; so in mid-60s he reshapes it from AM (Comparative in Eldarin), and in 1969 apparently forgets that.
Actually, I keep believing in H remaining (too many things crumble without that) and hence in
'thank' separate from
< amta 'give'. Sindarin might be
for former and
for latter; or even
which I favour. After all, in the batch of
Comparative, and, Ambar
Tolkien allows himself many minor abandoned controversies in commentary, such as suddenly making
'go, proceed' into
for no reason and eliminating any word for 'send' by wiping
simultaneously. Hence — I do take his
there lightly, as a remnant of a previous concept.
Jan 22, 2016 (22:06)
Still, there are Sindarin words beginning in ha- still. Is it only in this particular case initial "h" disappears?
Jan 23, 2016 (10:08)
That's not the point. Sindarin initial
is only from KH and SK and was like that as early as the