Post dddV2RGKWm3

Tamas Ferencz Nov 24, 2017 (12:35)

I wonder if tolya "prominent" (lit. sticking up) could be a good kenning for "proud, haughty"

Lokyt L. Nov 24, 2017 (13:58)

There is a bunch of words glossed "lofty", "exalted", "sublime" (like arata etc.). Maybe they could cover this as well?

Tamas Ferencz Nov 24, 2017 (14:42)

+Lokyt L. indeed I was thinking of those, too - but they looked a bit too lofty to me, pardon the pun:)

Lokyt L. Nov 24, 2017 (15:39)

Well, I think a bit of irony easily handles that :)

There's also something else that could be a problem: a lack of negative markedness. What you need (if I understand correctly) is an adjective expressing "(someone) feeling/acting noble and lofty in spite of not actually being like that", "unduly proud" – whereas Q. arata, S. raud etc. are rather "(someone) REALLY being noble and lofty", "acting in a DULY exalted way".
But, again, irony is irony... :)

Paul Strack Nov 24, 2017 (17:17)

What about taryalanga “stiff-necked”, analogous to S tarlang

Tamas Ferencz Nov 24, 2017 (18:26)

+Paul Strack that's a fantastic idea.

Lokyt L. Nov 24, 2017 (21:17)

I think that depends on what is your intention.

Basically, one is tarlang when reluctant to make concessions, to adapt one's stance.
I agree that it may be one of the symptoms of haughtiness, but they're not the same thing. One can be tarlang (obstinate, hard to persuade) while also very humble and modest. And on the other hand, one can also be absolutely haughty, arrogant, snooty, and yet adaptive and easily convinced.

Paul Strack Nov 24, 2017 (21:21)

+Lokyt L. One of the glosses of S. tarlang is “proud” (PE17/92, 98), so I think the implication is being obstinate with an excess of pride rather than merely stubborn or resolute. - Eldamo : Sindarin : tarlang

Lokyt L. Nov 24, 2017 (22:10)

+Paul Strack Ah, right, that makes sense.
I've let my native language mislead me too much :) (There's a direct formal counterpart od tarlang: tvrdošíjný, a compound of tvrdý "stiff" and šíje "neck"; but it means simply "stubborn" with no further connotations.)

But still, the difference between tarlang (more or less "stubborn and proud") and some "lofty, haughty, arrogant" to be used for someone, who is also weak and fickle, probably remains.

Tamas Ferencz Nov 24, 2017 (22:36)

One option that comes to mind is immoquanta "full of his/herself"

Paul Strack Nov 24, 2017 (22:46)

+Lokyt L. Well, “stiff-necked” mostly just means “stubborn” in English as well. Given the extra gloss, it seems possible that S. tarlang has an additional connotation, though I doubt it could be used for “proud” in a positive sense (“I am proud of what you did”).

There is another English expression of “having one’s nose in the air” which means “haughty”, so perhaps the Sindarin expression is similar to that?

Interestingly, one of the glosses for the root TOL is “raise the head” (VT47/28), and there is an English expression “hold your head high” for being justifiably proud, so perhaps TOL could be used to craft a neologism for the other (good) sense of “proud”.

There is also early Noldorin blodren “arrogant”, so perhaps something could be done with that.

Lokyt L. Nov 24, 2017 (23:10)

+Paul Strack Yeah, mít nos nahoru "to keep one's nose directed upwards". The same here :) But I can't imagine this compressed into a single wordform (let alone that edhil might not know this body language element at all).
Anyway, blodren is definitely a good catch. Giving what Mîm is described like, this adjective (i.e. its potential Sindarin descendant in the external history) indeed seems to cover the semantic area I had in mind :)

+Tamas Ferencz Wouldn't this be perceived rather as "selfish"?

Tamas Ferencz Nov 25, 2017 (00:45)

+Lokyt L. Well these are all sort of on the same spectrum, aren't they; selfish, arrogant, egoistic, haughty,, etc. The Hungarian word öntelt on which I modelled it, is closer in meaning to "arrogant, overly confident , overestimating his own worth"

Robert Reynolds Nov 25, 2017 (14:24)

Yet another take is a neologism in Helge Fauskanger's Bible translation. Below is an except from the paper that he wrote early on into the project:

A special case is the word *valatë “pride” (occurring once, 1 John 2:16). The only published word for “pride” seems to be blaud from an early version of Noldorin (PE13:160). I treated the word as if it were Sindarin (it certainly fits its style well enough, as does the derived adjective blodren “arrogant”). Thus I referred blaud to primitive *b(a)lātē (opting for ​-​ē as the lost final vowel because this is a common abstract ending). This in turn allows the derivation of *valatë as the – hypothetical! – Quenya cognate. We can assume *BALAT​-​ as an extended form of the root BAL​-​ having to do with power (LR:350), as if words for “pride” come from an original concept of “lordliness”. The fact that BAL yields the word Vala does not mean that it cannot have negative connotations; it also provides the initial element of Balrog “power-demon”, Q Valarauco!

Such words occurred many more times as he continued his translation. He sometimes used *valatie instead of *valate and adjectival forms *valatea, *valata 'pride'.

Paul Strack Nov 25, 2017 (17:12)

+Robert Reynolds It’s funny, I was thinking how I’d adapt blaud into Quenya and was also considering a root BALAT as an extended form of BAL. It’s amazing that Helge already made this derivation. I need to start mining his work for other neologisms.

Björn Fromén Nov 25, 2017 (17:55)

Could *nattirula 'apt to look down [on others]' work for 'haughty'?