Post eqYZ19rwQVy

Rick Spell Jun 21, 2015 (20:49)

I need some more translation help. I am trying to translate

"I will lift my eyes to the maker of the mountains I can't climb."
So far, I have
"Ortuvan hendunya i carirenna i orontion ya lá polan retë."

I also need "I will lift my eyes to the maker of the oceans raging wild."
This is what I have:
"Ortuvan hendunya I carirenna ëaron rathrala hráva"

Lastly, "I will lift my eyes to the healer of the hurt I hold inside"
"Ortuvan hendunya envinyatarenna I nwalmon..."
I know heb- means keep (for hold), and imi means in or inside.

All thoughts and corrections are welcome. I am learning (slowly).

Paul Strack Jun 21, 2015 (21:41)

I am not sure about carir "maker" as an agental form of car-. The agental suffix -r is mostly a fossilized suffix, and all the examples I know of are derived from a-stem verbs. I think carmo or carindo would be better.

I am not sure where you got rathrala "raging" (S. ruthra-?), but th does not appear in 3rd-age Quenya. Maybe ursala- instead (PE17/188).

The genitive of nwalme "pain" is nwalmeo "of pain", not nwalmon (typo?).

For "that I keep/hold inside", I might just use minye "within me".

If you want to use a subordinate clause, maybe ya haryan imi "that I have inside".

The verb heb- "to keep" is Sindarin, not Quenya. The Quenya form (if it exist) would be *hep-.

Mostly, though, these translations looks pretty good to me.

EDIT: Also, probably you should use the aorist form of pol- in the first sentences: polin instead of polan.

Tamas Ferencz Jun 22, 2015 (09:54)

Good efforts! I would add one thing to Paul's comments: "wild" in the first sentence is an adverb (it should properly be ' wildly ') - in Quenya I would say hrávave or hrávie

Jan Sorondil Slaný Jun 22, 2015 (12:25)

As for hráva or hrávave, I remember Helge referring to this very topic in his course. According to it, if the "wildness" can be appplied to the "oceans", rather than to the verbal action, it is usual to express it with an adjective, not adverb. So ëar ursala hráva might be actually correct.

Björn Fromén Jun 22, 2015 (23:30)

This is confirmed by PE 17:73-74: "Adverbs from adjectives. - - - Whenever possible an adjective was used attrib[utive] to the agent or subject; as he ran quick, -- spoke soft -- sat silent -- it shone golden...". Accordingly, in The Road Goes Ever On Tolkien defined laurie in laurie lantar lassi as a plural adjective, not as an adverb or an abstract noun. 

Tamas Ferencz Jun 23, 2015 (00:33)

I love this community! All the time I learn things I otherwise would've skimmed over or would've forgotten.

Andre Polykanine Jun 23, 2015 (01:05)

Yes, and once more about polin: I agree it should be aorist. But if it is in present, it should have a long vowel — pólan.

Rick Spell Jun 23, 2015 (01:25)

Thank you all for your help! It is great to get so many comments so quickly. As I digest this I will respond to these ideas. I agree with Tamas. I love this community!

Tamas Ferencz Jun 23, 2015 (09:07)

+Menelion Elensúlë yes, but the question is, would modal verbs like can, able, know, would etc ever be used in present continuous?

Александр Запрягаев Jun 23, 2015 (09:59)

+Paul Strack +Tamas Ferencz I'd like to add something about the 'maker' form (if to chjose from these two, which are indeed permissiblr phonologically, I'd put carmo with -mo, attested for R-roots above carindo — if I recall correctly, it is badly attested beyond L-roots). But there are two peculiar points:
1) Why shouldn't we use an attested táno? It is though glossed 'craftsman, smith', but also Tintánie 'star-maker', centano, Círdan 'ship-wright' < ciria-tano. I guess the derivation of a root 'make, fashion' is more likely to get us a 'maker' than starting from KAR, which will always semantically closer to a 'doer, agent' rather than one who fashions.
2) Even if we make an agent from KAR, we have tyaro 'agent' < strengthened KYAR 'cause, do'? Does it point to a simple Proto-Eldarin *caro for a KAR-derivative instead?

Björn Fromén Jun 23, 2015 (17:46)

carindo is attested through úcarindor 'misdoers', 'sinners' (Aia María III-IV). Also cf. astarindo 'bystander'.

Александр Запрягаев Jun 23, 2015 (18:43)

+Björn Fromén My error. We also have lucindo and rucindo for non-L roots. (Though all in abandoned versions still.) But all to the point: the implied meaning is 'doer, agent, one who acts' and quite far from a desired 'maker'. [After studying PE17 I think rather than tano should be tamo in mature Quenya; cf. Tintanie > Tintallë.]

Björn Fromén Jun 24, 2015 (01:05)

+Александр Запрягаев  However, the explicit senses 'make', 'form', 'construct' are all well attested for car-.