Post f6XpWnxU6Ug

Ицхак Пензев Oct 27, 2017 (15:43)

Aiya, nildor!
Once I was quite enthusiastic about [Neo-]Quenya. Then I experienced a kind of frustration, having read PE22 and totally lost in its new materials. For more than a year I kept silence.
Now I feel like I have recovered from this frustration, but I still need explanation from a more diligent explorer than I am, as concers the things that we should incorporate into our renewed Neo-Quenya reconstructions. Who can guide me?

Tamas Ferencz Oct 27, 2017 (16:04)

Fire away! At the very least we'll have a discussion

Александр Запрягаев Oct 27, 2017 (18:37)

I'm ready. I've embraced it. Though in a maximalist kind of way.

Paul Strack Oct 27, 2017 (18:52)

To be honest, I don’t know that PE22 changes much from a Neo-Quenya perspective. The five main Quenya verb tenses we already knew about (aorist, present, past, perfect, future) remain more or less the same, and already cover most of our needs. The new verbal constructions cover mostly obscure situations, so you don’t really need to use them.

Tolkien’s use of pronominal prefixes in the Quenya Verb Structure article can also be safely ignored. Tolkien apparently flirted with the idea of using pronominal prefixes instead of suffixes in the late 1940s (a temporary restoration of the Early Quenya Grammar) but quickly abandoned the idea.

Unfortunately these articles don’t do anything resolve the question of negation, other than to give more examples of Tolkien’s vacillation between LA and U. I’d continue to use whatever negative construction you prefer.

To be honest I haven’t fully digested PE22 myself, but I haven’t really changed my writing at all because of it. I think it mostly illuminates some of the more obscure corners of the Quenya language without really affecting our understanding of its core.

Fiona Jallings Oct 27, 2017 (21:44)

I really love the more obscure combined tenses that Tolkien made... I've been playing with them a bit. And, I yearn for more information on Sindarin tenses, since we got a tantalizing taste.

Tamas Ferencz Oct 27, 2017 (23:27)

I find PE22 very rich in information. The syntactical pieces, for instance, have really enriched my understanding how Quenya worked on the sentence level. The various verbal adjectives and other verbal derivations have shown that these suffixes were really productive and can potentially provide plenty of opportunity to enrich our vocabulary. And one can go on.

Evan A Oct 28, 2017 (11:20)

On a practical level, I agree with Itsak's feelings. Its discouraging when new complexities arise and new writings posted are no longer understandable without a lot of dictionary work. Maybe we are at a phase which Paul's comment points toward - summing up clarifying the useful bits but continuing to work towards a usable core. One possible help is for Neo-Q writers go back to the Elfling habit of including definitions of the more obscure or newer words at the bottom of the post? Tomas- looking forward to your new introduction the way what are the sentence (syntactical) insights that are usable?

Evan A Oct 28, 2017 (11:50)

sorry for misspelling Tamas.

Tamas Ferencz Oct 28, 2017 (13:15)

+Evan A off the top of my head: the bits on using gerunds and infinitives, on how questions are formed, agreement and negation, particular and general infinitives, on conditionals etc. This was not necessarily all new information, but more clearly explained and with examples.

Evan A Oct 28, 2017 (14:58)

I think that in Greek infinitives are used where English prefers gerunds. What is it for quenya?

Ицхак Пензев Oct 29, 2017 (09:24)

Thank you, guys, for your replies. I feel mostly the same as Paul: PE22 material is abundant but not revolutionary.

Tamas Ferencz Oct 29, 2017 (11:24)

+Ицхак Пензев it is not entirely clear to me what revolution you are after. As far as I can tell the Quenya grammar is practically complete. Yes, we must piece it together from various essays and notes, and it requires us to exercise choices where there is oscillation on Tolkien's side, but there is hardly any area on which we don't have something to go on. What we still lack is vocabulary, and the critical mass of Quenya users that would start cementing idioms and phrases and neologisms into the language.

Paul Strack Oct 29, 2017 (11:53)

Actually, I think the fact that PE22 doesn’t radically overturn our understanding of Quenya is, in and of itself, useful information. It goes a long way to fleshing out our understanding of existing Quenya grammar without overturning it. For example, it gives us more details on Tolkien’s ideas of the historical development of the verbal declensions of Quenya. While it doesn’t “solve” the debate on negative formations, it gives us more examples and constructions to work with.

PE22 should give us more confidence that our basic understanding of Quenya grammar is sound. There is still more to be learned in the more obscure branches of Quenya grammar, but it seems like our grasp of the fundamentals is mostly correct.

In terms of brand new information, I think PE22 tells more about basic Sindarin constructs than it does about Quenya.

Ицхак Пензев Oct 29, 2017 (11:59)

As for vocabulary, I am sure we have enough to start with. Modern Hebrew can be a good example. Its grammar is mostly Mishnaitic, but it takes vocabulary from every attested source in order to reflect modern concepts.