Post fNLNwRt18Ld

Hjalmar Holm Mar 29, 2015 (23:18)

Any S word for "rare, unusual" or "weird, peculiar, curious, strange"?

Paul Strack Mar 29, 2015 (23:33)

The closest I can find is G. elegrin "different, strange" with associated noun G. elm "a wonder; a singular, marvelous or unique thing; something strange" (GL/32). I think the underlying root here is EL, which seems to have survived into Tolkien’s later writing as the basis for Q. ela "behold!" (as well as ELEN "star").

Maybe these words can be Sindarized somehow, perhaps S. elerin "strange"?

Paul Strack Mar 29, 2015 (23:39)

In the Gnomish Lexicon slips, Tolkien seems to have revised the G. elm to elmen "wonder" from primitive *elmendā (PE13:116). In Sindarin phonology, this would have become S. elven ... almost certainly not a word Tolkien would have used, but nevertheless amusing.

Hjalmar Holm Mar 30, 2015 (00:07)

Haha! I would not use the word elven, but perhaps elui, after the S exclamation elo! "expression of wonder"? If the stem is el, then simply add -ui to make an adjective? A quick and dirty neologism, but perhaps not entirely wrong, and possible to guess the semantics of.

Hjalmar Holm Mar 30, 2015 (00:11)

I see now that there is already a neologism in the VQP elui "starry". It could still do as a homonyme, but only for "wondrous, marvellous" in a positive sense.

Paul Strack Mar 30, 2015 (00:24)

Actually, I think elerin is a viable Sindarin adjective, developed from a primitive form *elerinā = "worth beholding". This would produce S. eleren, with the common Sindarin adjective suffix -ren. This could have reverted back to elerin by dissimilation, as with S. celebrin "of silver" instead of celebren. I agree that it would have a positive connotation: "wondrous".

Alternately, I found othol "stranger, guest" (PE17:141), apparently from a root OTH, to perhaps othren "strange" (I would have used othui, but that already means "seventh"). This may a negative connotation, under the influence of the prefix oth- "wrong with bad sense" (PE17:151, 172), from the root UTH.

Hjalmar Holm Mar 30, 2015 (00:32)

eleren and othren for "strange" in (positively) positive and bad manners respectively: much better than my own attempts. Thanks!

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Mar 30, 2015 (13:22)

The Gnomish forms quoted by Paul also call to mind 1960's (?) S edel/egel, edlon/eglon in PE17:140-2 : see and compare Gn. faron "separate, different, strange". (P.S. IMO, Gnomish eleg "other, else" would correspond to Sindarin *esc, eg(e)n [: Q exa] or edu, *aid [cp. Finnish muuka-lainen "stranger", muu "else, other"])

A synonymous neologism could of course contain a negative prefix + a word meaning "familiar/regular/common" (etc.).

If a Sindarin etymological cognate of Q minda "prominent, conspicuous" existed, it would be *mend (assuming it wouldn't be extended e.g. with some prefix).

Lőrinczi Gábor Mar 30, 2015 (14:11)

Maybe *anwareb (< anwar "awe" + -eb) for "weird, strange"?

Hjalmar Holm Mar 30, 2015 (14:34)

I think anwareb sounds more like "wonderful, marvellous", and I may have use for such a word. edwen ,is already attested as "second", which might make it a good choice for "other, else", thinking of the Swedish word andra which means both "second" and "other" (example den andra mars "the second [day] of mars" and den andra saken "the other thing").

Jenna Carpenter Mar 30, 2015 (15:04)

What's wrong with íd = rare from PE/17?

Lőrinczi Gábor Mar 30, 2015 (15:41)

+Jenna Carpenter It was deleted, see the note in PE/17:112.

Hjalmar Holm Mar 30, 2015 (18:39)

+Jenna Carpenter +Lőrinczi Gábor Is it this word you were talking about? It seems the same, but with another meaning.

Jenna Carpenter Mar 30, 2015 (18:42)

Hjalmar, no, it's not that. See page 112 as +Lőrinczi Gábor​ said :). As far as not using deleted forms, they were used in the translations in the films, so it's not without precedent!

Lőrinczi Gábor Mar 30, 2015 (19:23)

Ok, I just noticed that the meaning of the deleted íd was "extremely, very", not "rare". It was just a rare (rarely used) S word. :)

Hjalmar Holm Mar 30, 2015 (22:31)

So right now, there are no word reading íd?

Lőrinczi Gábor Mar 31, 2015 (10:47)

+Hjalmar Holm Well, the revised version of the first text concerning the derivatives of √IT doesn't mention S íd, which I interpret that Tolkien rejected it.

Paul Strack Mar 31, 2015 (16:34)

The meaning of the root IT and its various derivatives seems to have emerged while Tolkien was working on the etymology of the name S. Idril and its Quenya cognate Itarillë. I wrote a bit about it here.

Tamas Ferencz Mar 31, 2015 (19:42)

In Quenya negation of senya or senwa "usual" is an option.

Hjalmar Holm Apr 07, 2015 (00:15)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ I only now realized you did not propose edwen but rather egen or edu as "other, else". Earlier in this thread I wrote about my thoughts on edwen and how I don't see it as a problem that there is already a homonyme.

Fiona Jallings Apr 10, 2015 (22:16)

What about minai ? It means "unique, one of a kind, distinct".