Post fTaGoVsR4ju

James Coish Sep 23, 2017 (00:37)

Would saveryet translate to he believes it?

James Coish Sep 23, 2017 (00:56)

Rather he believes them.

Paul Strack Sep 23, 2017 (01:17)

I would read it that way, yes. It is subtle, though. The phrase more accurately means "He believes they exist". To mean something like "He believes what they say", the proper phrase would be:

saverye quetielta "(lit.) He believes their words"

Paul Strack Sep 23, 2017 (01:23)

Another example.

The best translation of saven Eldar would be "I believe in Elves", that is that Elves exist. To translate "I believe the Elves", that is that what they say is true, the construct is as above:

saven i Eldaron quetier "I believe in the words (or sayings) of the Elves"

Александр Запрягаев Sep 23, 2017 (09:20)

Hm. I wish to add no-one noticed that it is savéset or at least savesset that would mean that. There is no inflection rye.

Paul Strack Sep 23, 2017 (15:54)

Doh! +Александр Запрягаев is right. I'm embarrassed I missed that.

Tamas Ferencz Sep 23, 2017 (15:56)

The connecting vowel is i in the aorist.

Björn Fromén Sep 23, 2017 (17:45)

Indeed. So my choice would be savis te or possibly savisset for 'he believes they exist'.

Александр Запрягаев Sep 23, 2017 (17:51)

+Björn Fromén I think it's probable that the unquoted word 'to trust (a person)' is actually vore BOR. This way vórima, voronda are perfectly understandable. The Etym entry does not exactly contradict this, it is just more compact; otherwise vórima (with a long vowel) becomes a peculiar example of a verbal derivation from something totally non-verbal. And vórima as 'trustworthy' is a super-straightforward interpretation.

James Coish Sep 23, 2017 (17:51)

The sentence in question is Túro nyanyarra tenna savisset. Túro keeps telling tales until he believes them. Correct?

Александр Запрягаев Sep 23, 2017 (17:56)

+James Coish nyanyarra? I would say nanyarra (only the core component repeats). And savíset (or rather save te, as the subject's here).

James Coish Sep 23, 2017 (17:59)

I used tyatyamba as a guide for nyanyarra.

Björn Fromén Sep 24, 2017 (17:11)

+James Coish How about Túro nanyarra tenna savis i nyarnaryar naiti ('T. keeps telling until he believes that his tales [are] true')?

James Coish Sep 24, 2017 (17:15)

Yes, that may have a more clear meaning.

James Coish Sep 30, 2017 (04:07)

would "keeps telling himself" be *nyanyarraxe since there is a subject?

Tamas Ferencz Sep 30, 2017 (09:42)

+James Coish​ in my mind, the -xe suffix is for actions that are inherently reflexive, like washes himself, combed her (own) hair, - in this regard akin to the Russian suffix -sya or Polish enclitic sie. For other situations like yours I would use immo and its inflected variants, i.e. nyanyarra insen.

But I may be sorely mistaken and Tolkien may have intended both constructs to have the same meaning (immo is later than -xe)

Björn Fromén Oct 01, 2017 (17:47)

My guess is that -xe is possible only when the reflexive is the direct object of the verb. In "tell himself sth" it's the indirect object (= "tell sth to himself") and thus would require a dative or allative of immo/inse as Tamas suggests.