feFcdwgRtDc — G+ LoME Archive

Александр Запрягаев Apr 11, 2016 (18:12)

+Paul Strack +Tamas Ferencz +Fiona Jallings Let's have a discussion of those forms here. Please inform me of any additions and possible alternate interpretations!

*Important Words from QVS (not verbs or pronouns or their derivatives)*

96
né 'ago', anda né 'long ago'
á 'oh!'
97
u-la 'apt to, likely to do so'
111
nasto 'beast'
sanga 'pack, crowd'
116
hinna 'still' (seems to be all. of some demonstrative)
119
*ve 'with' (talking with your father)*
*pa 'about'*
úmahta(le) 'nuisance'
120
mólome 'hard work'
121
*yú 'too'*
**í(qa), illume, íqallume 'when, whenever'**
san ?'then' (as opposed to 'if')
124
manima 'of what kind'
malka 'how great'
mana 'who' — all pluralized with 'r'
*nan 'again' (adv.)*
nóloa 'yesteryear'
enta 'then (fut.)'
enar 'tomorrow' (en-áre)
elloa 'next year' (en-loa)
qáqi 'all?'
raiqa 'angry'
sinar 'this morning'
aiano 'stranger'
uman 'at one time?'
nairea 'sorrowful'
kanya 'wise'
*kato 'afterwards'*
*kata 'after'*
tulma 'event'
alwara 'useless'
125
andalúme 'for a long while'
niksi 'fishes'
enyasse 'there far away'
landa, lanna 'plain'
sinan 'at present'
isse 'where (rel.)'

*Pronouns Examples*
Ni• 'I'
-s (Unemphatic dative could before: e•ni•anta
e• 'he, she, it' (-s 'him')
a• (me• 'we'
khe• 'they' CE
Verbal number: r/l- pl., t/s- dl. mati•l•sa 'eat/PL/it, they eat something' > matilda
-m/n sometimes appears in the end of object pronouns in pl.
n in Q appears in pl. before 1st person elements, assimilated
two 3rd persons: near (only, first of two, 'reflexive' when a 3rd person is subject), remoter.
ke• (-te 'it' CE 'near'
-lte 'it' when plurality is needed to be expressed
-the, -ste 'it' CE 'remoter'
-the 'it' Q
-n 'me'
le• 'you' (polite)
he• 'they'
-lti (r/ti) 'them'
Gilson's count: 56 forms. Sg/dl/pl subject x 17 objects (1/2/3 person in sg/dl/pl 9, excl/incl 1dl/pl 11, 2 curt/polite in all numbers 14, 3 near/remote in all numbers). dl/pl without object, reflexives sg/dl/pl.
-tta, etta 'his'
-lla, ella 'yours'
ette 'he (emph.)'
inye 'I (emph.)'
intin 'they (emph.?)'

Subjects
Ni > ?(?) > Me (?)
Ke/Le > ? > ?
E, A > ? > He

Objects (sg. subject)
n(e) > ?(?) > ?(?)
?/? > ?/? > ?/?
s(te)/the > ?/? > ti?/?

Dl. unknown

Pl.
? > ?(?) > ?(?)
?/? > ?/? > ?/?
lte, lda/? > ?/? > lti/?

Александр Запрягаев Apr 11, 2016 (18:20)

kata explains the forms Cadloer, Cathriw of Noldorin months July and January.

Ekin Gören Apr 11, 2016 (18:41)

I've been meaning to bring kata up. It has an old cognate in Noldorin, cadlaer (cadloer) & cathriw [PM/136]. Thus, *cad? +Александр Запрягаев +Paul Strack
Edit: I didn't refresh the page until I posted this. Alex beat me to it.

Matt Dinse Apr 12, 2016 (03:58)

If kato is in bold since you're looking for an explanation, it fits the same pattern (adverbial -u) as yu 'and', yú 'both', as well as ando (Koivienéni and EQG). For that matter, yu and yú look like yan "and", yando "also". Arguably rato "*soon" and ento "next" also apply, like táro "*high" in the Two Trees sentence. (Cf. Wynne/Gilson in VT27,14), though this has been pointed out for a while. I'm not sure if I noticed the applicability to yu/yú just now, or if someone else mentioned this last summer and I haven't been able to find it with the search function.

123 has many more pronouns, and there's also nye "me", along with sa/ha for clauses (119 etc.) that could be related to the demonstratives.

Paul Strack Apr 12, 2016 (04:27)

I hadn't noticed the connection between kata and Cadlaer. Thanks for that.

It seems like Tolkien abandoned kata "after" in the early 1950s in favor of epe or apa, though the list of roots on PE22/147 indicate he at least considered restoring it in the late 1960s.

Александр Запрягаев Apr 12, 2016 (13:23)

+Paul Strack But now the months become the greater mess. With these noloa etc., where no seems to be connected to 'before', its application at this very time to second months of seasons (often final) becomes inexplicable?

Tamas Ferencz Apr 12, 2016 (14:34)

I feel a bit confused about this post (not enough coffee I suppose). Are you referring to an earlier thread/conversation I have missed?
The title says "not verbs or pronouns" but then you list a great swath of pronouns.
Help! :)

Tamas Ferencz Apr 12, 2016 (14:37)

I wonder whether né "ago" and yá "ago" coexist.

Tamas Ferencz Apr 12, 2016 (14:41)

Re: u-la on p97 I assumed it was not an adjective on its own (although it could be after all) but the adjectival ending also listed on p111 with examples like nyárula.

Tamas Ferencz Apr 12, 2016 (14:50)

pa "about" has been known, hasn't it, from one of the VTs, "on, touching, about" with a literal and figurative sense.

Александр Запрягаев Apr 12, 2016 (15:03)

+Tamas Ferencz Actually, this pa would've made much sense geometrically: if APA 'in front (after)', EPE 'at back (before)', OPO 'above' and *UPU 'below' (from the or/nu characteristic vowels), then everything makes sense! However, as I am writing a treatise of 'before'/'after' now, it is incredibly hard to find out any common thread. In fact, I cannot find any single moment of him being fixed about epe - when I put those chronologically, each one is opposite to the previous!
P. S. By the way, how do you read Tolkien's "epetai following which fact" - as a statement that epe is 'after' (like 'after'='follow' in QE)
or 'before' (if consequence follows the reason, then epetai cannot be 'after fact that...' > 'because, due to' and not 'before fact that'='consequently')?

Tamas Ferencz Apr 12, 2016 (15:06)

aphastat 'it pleases him' is also a bit mysterious on p124

Matt Dinse Apr 12, 2016 (17:40)

+Tamas Ferencz, a-phasta-t can be explained when compared with me-aller fasta "we were not pleased" (119).

Tamas Ferencz Apr 12, 2016 (17:52)

+Matt Dinse
indeed, thank you. I wonder if this is a figurative use of fasta- "tangle". But that's probably far-fetched.

Александр Запрягаев Apr 12, 2016 (19:52)

Good grief, so many responses :)
+Matt Dinse I marked those in bold that belong to most basic lexicon and after checking should somehow be incorporated into working tongue. Good find on 123!
+Tamas Ferencz Sorry about that, I decided to list the pronouns separately, but the non-personal ones still got upwards! Anyway, Gilson's count confuses me: he (after Tolkien) claims 3rd person makes only near vs. far distinction - but we have te and sa beside the, which apparently is animate vs. inanimate!
Aphastat I read as < ga/phasta/te.

Ицхак Пензев May 24, 2016 (10:21)

In VT43:30 cata seems to denote "behind". Thus it seems to be semanticly connected to the idea of "after".