G+ LoME Archive
Apr 11, 2016 (18:12)
Let's have a discussion of those forms here. Please inform me of any additions and possible alternate interpretations!
*Important Words from QVS (not verbs or pronouns or their derivatives)*
né 'ago', anda né 'long ago'
u-la 'apt to, likely to do so'
sanga 'pack, crowd'
hinna 'still' (seems to be all. of some demonstrative)
*ve 'with' (talking with your father)*
mólome 'hard work'
**í(qa), illume, íqallume 'when, whenever'**
san ?'then' (as opposed to 'if')
manima 'of what kind'
malka 'how great'
mana 'who' — all pluralized with 'r'
*nan 'again' (adv.)*
enta 'then (fut.)'
enar 'tomorrow' (en-áre)
elloa 'next year' (en-loa)
sinar 'this morning'
uman 'at one time?'
andalúme 'for a long while'
enyasse 'there far away'
landa, lanna 'plain'
sinan 'at present'
isse 'where (rel.)'
Unemphatic dative could before: e•ni•anta
e• 'he, she, it' (-s 'him')
khe• 'they' CE
Verbal number: r/l- pl., t/s- dl. mati•l•sa 'eat/PL/it, they eat something' > matilda
-m/n sometimes appears in the end of object pronouns in pl.
n in Q appears in pl. before 1st person elements, assimilated
two 3rd persons: near (only, first of two, 'reflexive' when a 3rd person is subject), remoter.
-te 'it' CE 'near'
-lte 'it' when plurality is needed to be expressed
-the, -ste 'it' CE 'remoter'
-the 'it' Q
le• 'you' (polite)
-lti (r/ti) 'them'
Gilson's count: 56 forms. Sg/dl/pl subject x 17 objects (1/2/3 person in sg/dl/pl 9, excl/incl 1dl/pl 11, 2 curt/polite in all numbers 14, 3 near/remote in all numbers). dl/pl without object, reflexives sg/dl/pl.
-tta, etta 'his'
-lla, ella 'yours'
ette 'he (emph.)'
inye 'I (emph.)'
intin 'they (emph.?)'
Ni > ?(?) > Me (?)
Ke/Le > ? > ?
E, A > ? > He
Objects (sg. subject)
n(e) > ?(?) > ?(?)
?/? > ?/? > ?/?
s(te)/the > ?/? > ti?/?
? > ?(?) > ?(?)
?/? > ?/? > ?/?
lte, lda/? > ?/? > lti/?
Apr 11, 2016 (18:20)
explains the forms
of Noldorin months July and January.
Apr 11, 2016 (18:41)
I've been meaning to bring
up. It has an old cognate in Noldorin,
[PM/136]. Thus, *
Edit: I didn't refresh the page until I posted this. Alex beat me to it.
Apr 12, 2016 (03:58)
is in bold since you're looking for an explanation, it fits the same pattern (adverbial -u) as
'both', as well as
(Koivienéni and EQG). For that matter,
"next" also apply, like
"*high" in the Two Trees sentence. (Cf. Wynne/Gilson in VT27,14), though this has been pointed out for a while. I'm not sure if I noticed the applicability to
just now, or if someone else mentioned this last summer and I haven't been able to find it with the search function.
123 has many more pronouns, and there's also
"me", along with
for clauses (119 etc.) that could be related to the demonstratives.
Apr 12, 2016 (04:27)
I hadn't noticed the connection between
. Thanks for that.
It seems like Tolkien abandoned
"after" in the early 1950s in favor of
, though the list of roots on PE22/147 indicate he at least considered restoring it in the late 1960s.
Apr 12, 2016 (13:23)
But now the months become the greater mess. With these
seems to be connected to 'before', its application
at this very time
of seasons (often final) becomes inexplicable?
Apr 12, 2016 (14:34)
I feel a bit confused about this post (not enough coffee I suppose). Are you referring to an earlier thread/conversation I have missed?
The title says "not verbs or pronouns" but then you list a great swath of pronouns.
Apr 12, 2016 (14:37)
I wonder whether
Apr 12, 2016 (14:41)
on p97 I assumed it was not an adjective on its own (although it could be after all) but the adjectival ending also listed on p111 with examples like
Apr 12, 2016 (14:50)
"about" has been known, hasn't it, from one of the VTs, "on, touching, about" with a literal and figurative sense.
Apr 12, 2016 (15:03)
would've made much sense geometrically: if APA 'in front (after)', EPE 'at back (before)', OPO 'above' and *UPU 'below' (from the
characteristic vowels), then everything makes sense! However, as I am writing a treatise of 'before'/'after' now, it is incredibly hard to find out any common thread. In fact, I cannot find any single moment of him being fixed about
- when I put those chronologically, each one is opposite to the previous!
P. S. By the way, how do you read Tolkien's "epetai following which fact" - as a statement that
is 'after' (like 'after'='follow' in QE)
or 'before' (if consequence follows the reason, then
cannot be 'after fact that...' > 'because, due to' and not 'before fact that'='consequently')?
Apr 12, 2016 (15:06)
'it pleases him' is also a bit mysterious on p124
Apr 12, 2016 (17:40)
can be explained when compared with
"we were not pleased" (119).
Apr 12, 2016 (17:52)
indeed, thank you. I wonder if this is a figurative use of
"tangle". But that's probably far-fetched.
Apr 12, 2016 (19:52)
Good grief, so many responses :)
I marked those in bold that belong to most basic lexicon and after checking should somehow be incorporated into working tongue. Good find on 123!
Sorry about that, I decided to list the pronouns separately, but the non-personal ones still got upwards! Anyway, Gilson's count confuses me: he (after Tolkien) claims 3rd person makes only near vs. far distinction - but we have
which apparently is animate vs. inanimate!
I read as
May 24, 2016 (10:21)
seems to denote "behind". Thus it seems to be semanticly connected to the idea of "after".