G+ LoME Archive
Jul 23, 2015 (11:49)
How would you make a verb 'become heavy'? I think to start from a CE pattern
I presume that the causative formant makes a-affection and medial
remains, hence *
. Any alternative opinions?
Jul 23, 2015 (13:04)
I am not on top with my Sindarin phonetics. Would a causative (
) 'make heavy' would result in a different form from an inceptive
'be made heavy, become heavy'? (PE22:157) - or would they collide in an identical form?
Jul 23, 2015 (18:04)
My mistake, of course I meant it short. But it seems that the derivation of verbs from adjectives can perform two ways:
• with ta in the inceptive meaning 'become smth.'
• with causative tā in the meaning 'make smth.' (PE22:135). Tolkien seems to play with the idea that inceptives are made with -s forms, but in 1969 materials we get, for example, Q.
meaning both 'to make white' and 'to become white', coalescing in all itw Eldarin derivatives. In the 'Common Eldarin' concept, the 'become heavy' idea would rather result in
form, which in S. would yield I'm unsure what exactly!
, if not
Jul 26, 2015 (17:33)
Couldn't you express this as "grow heavy" hence
"grow heavy" or even
Jul 26, 2015 (17:39)
is used of plants only.
< olā lungu 'become heavy', if to pursue this line?
Jul 26, 2015 (17:54)
I'm fairly sure that Tolkien used
in the context of becoming, but I can't recall if it is a phrase in PE17, PE22 or VT50. I'll have a look.
But then, maybe
isn't derived from the same root as
? I honestly dont' know much about derivation.
How did you arrive at
Jul 26, 2015 (18:07)
"grow" [PE22:103]. :) It seems to me to be the best way to go. I'm still hunting for that other quote, though.
Jul 26, 2015 (18:10)
If there were any associations of
with 'becoming' (as there definitely were with 'goodness'), they are all obsoleted by selecting
. CE verb
is derived from the stem GAL and would indeed yield
in Quenya, but that does not shift the 'plant' concept.
is described, for example, at PE22:134.
Jul 26, 2015 (18:13)
Rather contradictory to my own statement, I see PE17:153 that it is explicit, as you said, "of vegetable growth only." My mistake.
seems to be the better way to go.
Jul 26, 2015 (18:16)
If we address to the 'Common Eldarin: Noun Structure', we find that Tolkien explicitly separated the two roots, OL for 'become' and GAL (as in PE17) for 'grow'. Curiously, the concept of s-inceptives from this work is absent from any earlier or later work, and in 1969 Tolkien readily accepts
for both 'become white' and 'make white' with only different conjugation of
Jul 30, 2015 (10:32)
Interesting to be sure. I suppose the verb would be contextual, but I can imagine it becoming confusing if you're not careful. :)
Out of curiosity, what would
become in Sindarin?
"I [am] becoming"?
Jul 30, 2015 (15:02)
That's an inherently continuous verb, so I'd prefer not to make aorists and settle on
olad, olon, olanthen (úlen?), olathon, olol, úliel (eliel?), olanthen
Jul 30, 2015 (15:23)
All right! That makes sense. Thank you!
Aug 05, 2015 (06:00)
"Curiously, the concept of s-inceptives from this work is absent from any earlier or later work"
I wonder if the unglossed
(PE17:76) would beg to differ, though that's from
and probably the 1950s.