Post DxTeW5SxY9b

Fiona Jallings Mar 17, 2014 (23:09)

I wrote another poem in Sindarin: Ollas nin oh Auth
I ûl osp cân annin vîn ely nîn.
Cenin anin ‘Rûn, anin mâr e-dawarwaith i noss vîn.
Lith haer toba i lammen ned i thuion.
Echuiel faug, ethuion ar anin chenneth nîn nerin.
I gened nîn eno ‘annen vîn ôl nîn
I thî velig maethyr heregui – Edhellim, Adadhrim, Hadhodrim, ar Orchrim -
iallar rythriel, in guir lachol în, ith roe nerchennin în.
Hen gor-chíniel ned i lui laew, gwathron i chent nîn.
Ni ú-naug, Olodúr, ni nestor.
Amman ónel i ôl hen annin?

Edit: made the suggested changes

Fiona Jallings Mar 17, 2014 (23:11)

Translation: I Dreamt of War
The reek of smoke calls out to me in my dreams.
I look to the east, to the home of our forest kin.
Bitter ash covers my tongue as I breathe.
Having awakened gasping, I arise and run to my window.
My vision is still caught in my dream.
Great rows of bloody warriors – Elves, men, dwarves and orcs
Cry out in rage, their hearts burning, their flesh rent
Having regretfully seen this many times before, I veil my eyes.
I am no soldier, Dreammaster, I am a healer.
Why did you show me this?

Tamas Ferencz Mar 18, 2014 (10:58)

It's good to see some Sindarin - thanks, +Fiona Jallings !

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Mar 18, 2014 (14:11)

"Lechoel" is interesting, requires referring back to the material to see if there are any attestations that would back up this plural pattern (instead of analogical *–yl as in TTT soundtrack lyrics by Salo) which of course pertains to non-stressed back/final position (sg.) -o < *-ǭ < *-ā. (Cp. assumed pl. umlaut */oe/ for raug, Balrog et sim. which go back to CE *u, not *a).

If there really isn't anything newer, the question would be whether *ábārō >> N Afor, pl. Efuir, Efyr (Etym:347, VT45:5) would point to S /oe/ (as with updated monosyllables like gwaun < WAN ) or /y/ (unless both are possible?).

Roman Rausch Mar 18, 2014 (14:36)

Should the present participle be pluralized at all, if it's not done in Quenya (rámar sisílala)?

Fiona Jallings Mar 18, 2014 (23:29)

If it can be plural or not is a guess based on the past participles being pluralized.

I based the -oel for the plural off of the Quenya cognate, figuring it was a long A at some point, eventually becoming an O. I may be wrong though.
As for why OE and not Y in a word final syllable - I figured that the /i/ was infixed before the two O's (one from Long A, the other from short U and O, in very simple terms) blended, therefore the plural OE, especially in the word final position.

Roman Rausch Mar 19, 2014 (10:08)

Again, in Quenya past participles are pluralized (rakine tengwi), but present ones do not seem to be.

Another thing: oltha- is likely an impersonal verb (this is once more only explicitly mentioned for Quenya óla-), so I would say *olthas nin oh auth.

Fiona Jallings Mar 19, 2014 (18:47)

I don't think we have any examples of a impersonal verb in used in Sindarin. It feels weird to base this grammar entirely off of Quenya...

But it is a poetic idea to make the verb impersonal, like "Irmo made the dream happen to me." Is that the idea?

I think we did this before, but can we trace the history of Oltha-? I think it went something like this:


The "oltha" stage being early Sindarin, before the Southern Beleriand dialect broke off. I don't think it matters if the LTH didn't come from LT. If it was LTH when that phonetic change swept through, it would have been caught up in it too.

Roman Rausch Mar 19, 2014 (22:47)

The verbs _ œil/eil, bui_ and pesso from the Etymologies are clearly impersonal, either by explicit note or by translation.
And to see how they are used, we don't need Quenya necessarily, but can look at the precursor Goldogrin, where one finds luista nin 'I am thirsty', for example. In Goldogrin, oltha- is actually noted as 'impers[onal with a] dative [subject]'.
Look here:

As for the pronunciation, oltha- simply goes back to olsa- according to the Etymologies, where is certainly pronounced [lþ] in Noldorin. It may be [ɬɬ] (long voicelss l) in Sindarin, if you adopt this conception; and could be spelled , if you like.

Fiona Jallings Mar 20, 2014 (05:52)

Good article! I hadn't read it before. I was aware of the system in Quenya, but didn't know about older versions from the predecessors to Sindarin. Thank-you, as usual, I'm learning a lot.

I know it's a impossible effort, but I'm trying to translate as though everything was updated to the same era. That's why I changed "oltha" to "olla".

For present participles, what examples do we have of them in use, in Quenya?

Tamas Ferencz Mar 20, 2014 (09:13)

+Roman Rausch
pesso? I don't remember that word - where can it be found?

Roman Rausch Mar 20, 2014 (14:16)

+Fiona Jallings Unless I'm forgetting something, most (if not all) examples of present participles in use are found in the Markirya poem:
(The very first Qenya poem Narqelion from 1915 also has a lot of them:

Roman Rausch Mar 20, 2014 (14:18)

+Tamas Ferencz It should be in VT46 under PERES- (I don't have the sources available right now), meaning 'to concern, affect'.
So presumably *pessa nin 'it concerns/affects me', ú-bessa nin 'it doesn't concern/affect me'.

Tamas Ferencz Mar 20, 2014 (15:25)

Thank you, +Roman Rausch , so it coexists with presta- which I assume works like a usual transitive verb.

Fiona Jallings Mar 22, 2014 (08:09)

Is "pesso" in the VT? I don't see it in the PERES entry. I do see "persoos" given for Old Noldorin. This would be a nice word to have around...

Tamas Ferencz Mar 23, 2014 (09:14)

+Fiona Jallings it is inded there, page 8 of VT46, entry PERES-; useful indeed!