I'm making a quick reference chart of Neo-Quenya and Neo-Sindarin pronouns, as well as a quick reference chart of Neo-Quenya case suffixes. Before I connect the links and make the official announcement, please look it over and let me know if you see any errors (especially with Quenya, I'm not as confident in my knowledge of Quenya).
http://realelvish.net/quenya_pronouns.php
http://realelvish.net/sindarin_pronouns.php
http://realelvish.net/quenya_cases.php
Paul Strack Feb 27, 2015 (08:19)
These are nice lists.
Tamas Ferencz Feb 27, 2015 (09:33)
Paul Strack Feb 27, 2015 (09:45)
Also, I think ta is the demonstrative "that" instead of 3rd singular. Other than that I didn't see any major issues.
Paul Strack Feb 27, 2015 (16:01)
http://eldamo.sourceforge.net/content/words/word-2285592663.html
Paul Strack Feb 27, 2015 (16:16)
http://eldamo.sourceforge.net/content/words/word-485083557.html
Fiona Jallings Feb 28, 2015 (01:09)
Paul Strack Feb 28, 2015 (19:19)
I am think sina is an adjective "this", not a pronoun, and thus would not have the plural forms you list. In general, I would recommend against putting si and ta/sa into your list of independent pronouns; I think they are better described in the section on demonstratives.
Since you added mo, I would recommend adding hye/hé “other person, him (the other)”, which is nice construction.
http://eldamo.sourceforge.net/content/words/word-2487792493.html
Paul Strack Feb 28, 2015 (19:31)
I uncovered a variant 1st dual inclusive suffix -inque or -inke (VT49:51), which might have another attested emphatic pronoun inque or inke (VT49:51, bottom of the page) appearing in some marginal notes.
I think this might be the special oholima ("confidential") pronoun "thou and I" mentioned on PE17:129.
It has an interesting etymological origin, as a combination of the primitive elements *ni "I" and *ki "(intimate) you". It has a lot of variant forms, though, so I am not sure which one is the "best" to use. I lean toward inque right now, but I haven't really analyzed all the options yet.
http://eldamo.sourceforge.net/content/words/word-1935575371.html
Paul Strack Feb 28, 2015 (19:39)
I don't see any connection between enta and the future. Etymologically, it seems to be EN + TA = "again + that". It is glossed as “that yonder” (Etym:EN) and as an adjective “another, one more” (VT47:15).
I agree that yana does seem to refer to the past, however: YA + TA = "former + that"
http://eldamo.sourceforge.net/content/words/word-2694536069.html
Paul Strack Feb 28, 2015 (19:42)
http://eldamo.sourceforge.net/content/words/word-2024450751.html
Matt Dinse Feb 28, 2015 (19:54)
Paul Strack Feb 28, 2015 (20:00)
1) sitë should be síte with a long í.
2) I can't find either sinna or tanna attested. As pronouns, I think these are better as just sir(a) and tir(a), fossilizations of the primitive allative inflection *-da.
EDIT: tanna is attested (PE16:96) so I withdraw that objection.
3) I am not comfortable with using sa- as a demonstrative. I can only find it used this way in one place: sanome (PE17:71). Elsewhere it seems to be used for 3rd singular neuter.
In fact there is some evidence that sa originated as a variant of si, originally meaning "this by me, of my concern", VT49:37 note #15.
http://eldamo.sourceforge.net/content/words/word-3974540197.html
Anyway, that is all my feedback on your latest additions. Everything else looks good.
Paul Strack Feb 28, 2015 (20:11)
I noticed that hye "other person" has a neuter variant hya "other thing":
http://eldamo.sourceforge.net/content/words/word-3147673391.html
Paul Strack Feb 28, 2015 (22:59)
I haven't had time to analyze the poem in detail yet, but I suspect that this example of sana is a remnant of the Early Quenya demonstrative root SA (PE12:81). For purposes of Neo-Quenya writing, I personally would prefer to reserve Q. sa for 3rd singular neuter, since we have the better attested ta- to use for the demonstrative. But clearly an argument could be made the other way.
Matt Dinse Mar 01, 2015 (00:37)
sana is used when we already know that wende = Nielikkilis, and hain is used to refer to previously-mentioned Ennyn. In other cases where "that" does not refer to something previously mentioned, I would use tana. But I guess that's my own speculation.
Paul Strack Mar 01, 2015 (01:08)
Right now, while I agree that sa might co-exist with ta- as a demonstrative, I am not sure it could co-exist with sa as 3rd singular neuter. In VT49:37 note #46, Tolkien indicated that primitive pronominal form sa "this by me of my concern" was associated with primitive si (elsewhere "this, here, now"), and was the source of the neuter pronoun sa "the thing".
I am not sure how I would explain S. han "that" < san in this scenario, though. Maybe it originally meant "this" and shifted to "that" via semantic drift? I wouldn't want to commit to any particular view until I have looked at all the available information.
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. I've really enjoyed the overall conversation so far.
Fiona Jallings Mar 08, 2015 (20:43)
Paul Strack Mar 09, 2015 (06:05)
My only remaining suggestion is that you might want to add a footnote that when the 1st edition of LotR was published, -lme was 1st plural inclusive and -mme was 1st plural exclusive. It might be relevant if your student looks at Tolkien's Quenya prayers from the 1950s or Thorsten Renk's Quenya course.
Strictly speaking, the emphatic pronoun emme is attested (VT43:12), but with this older 1st plural exclusive sense.
That may be more complexity than you really want to throw at beginning students, though.