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Post jCLxhdjzNcJ
Александр Запрягаев, Lorenzo C.B., Poetry, Björn Fromén, #PE22, Tamas Ferencz, translations

Александр Запрягаев Aug 29, 2015 (14:46)

A preliminary draft, +#PE22 used extensively. All ecclesiastical neologisms due to Helge Fauskanger. The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, in attempt to render the Latin wording word for word.

1. Savin erya Eru, Atar Ilmeletya, Carindo menelo cemenyë, cénima ilquo ar alcénima.
2. Ar erya Heru Yésus Hristo, yondo Eruo ernostaina. Ar Atarello nóna apa ilyë oialer. Eru Erullo, cálë cálello, Eru nanwa Eru nanwallo. Nostaina, alcarina, imëastëa Ataren: yenen ilyë engwi carinë nar;
3. I men atanen ar rehtielman ununties menello. Ar eménies hröanna Airefëallo María wendëo: ar Atan carina;
4. Ar tarwestaina rá men: nu Pontio Piláto nwalina ar noitaina.
5. Ar encoirunies neldëa auressë, ve Aireparmasse técienwa,
6. Ar orories menelda: hamë foryassë Ataro.
7. Tanomello tuluvas alcaressë navien vëor ar firini: yev' Aranië euva mettenca.
8. Ar Airefëa, Heru ar coivie-anto: i Atarello Yondoyë tultaina. Yenna ve Atarenna Yondoye airitaina ar alcartaina ná: ye quentes ter in•Erutercánor;
9. Ar erya airë Eämbarwa ar apostelwa ocombë;
10. Etequentan erya tumyalë apsenien úcarë.
11. Ar horan i•encoirulë firinion.
12. Ar coivië tulila oialëo. Násie.

Tamas Ferencz Aug 30, 2015 (17:07)

I am not sure the o can follow qu in later-style Quenya? 
Can you explain iméreo please?
Perhaps you could consider using rá men instead of men alone in he was crucified for our sakes?

Александр Запрягаев Aug 30, 2015 (17:38)

+Tamas Ferencz 1. Well, it does not occur in vocabulary entries, but how should I render a genitive of ilqua otherwise?
2. I was thinking over consubstantialem for a while: I figured if even a Greek-to-Latin translation was tricky, Quenya one shouldn't be much easier! I went back to the Greek word, homoousios, which is made of the stems, 'same' and 'being', so I substituted im- for 'same', as outlined in PE17, and used PE22's ére to render the abstract gerund for ëa ("_Whereas ére is really an abstract_"). Hence, 'same-being-of'.
3. Much thanks! I was looking for a proper preposition — it seems we even have an attested case (dative) for this one! I'll fix it.

Александр Запрягаев Sep 04, 2015 (17:11)

+Tamas Ferencz Some revision.
2. Changed Ataro to Ataren: after some pondering, I believe dative case is the implied meaning here.
6. Changed formessë to foryassë to imply the meaning 'to the right' instead of 'to the North'.

Tamas Ferencz Sep 04, 2015 (17:59)

+Александр Запрягаев dative? My lambetyáve says comitative (influenced by my mother tongue no doubt)

Александр Запрягаев Sep 04, 2015 (18:11)

+Tamas Ferencz Well, I could always do imya érëo ve Atarya and get out, but I wish to render as close as possible and use the apparatus of cases; I spent much time considering different cases. In Russian, this would be either dative or an analytical comitative formed by preposition 'with' followed by instrumental. Latin employs a genitive here, but that seems much a peculiarity of a specific language; I also considered * asatar — would that be better?

Tamas Ferencz Sep 05, 2015 (13:50)

+Александр Запрягаев I'll have to ponder this. I have been looking at órava ómesse as a possible model, but am not sure yet how it would work

Александр Запрягаев Sep 06, 2015 (13:14)

+Tamas Ferencz Well, wasn't ó obsoleted by as during the Átaremma work?

Tamas Ferencz Sep 06, 2015 (18:53)

+Александр Запрягаев
was it? Can't the two coexist?

Björn Fromén Sep 06, 2015 (23:34)

At least it's back in LVS 13: va meninye ó le 'I won't come with you' (p.162).

Александр Запрягаев Sep 07, 2015 (09:11)

+Tamas Ferencz A new variant: uses PE22:123 "_eastë,_ being, essence". I decided to settle on the Latin wording, for it is impossible to guess the case in Quenya, and copying grammatical constructions when translating Christian texts is not unheard of.

Tamas Ferencz Sep 07, 2015 (09:27)

+Александр Запрягаев
or another possibility is to use nasse "nature, tru-being, essense" from PE17:174. (*imnassea?)

Björn Fromén Sep 07, 2015 (12:51)

+Александр Запрягаев
In both the Latin and the Greek wording the adjective takes the dative (consubstantialem Patri; homooúsion tô Patrí).

Александр Запрягаев Sep 13, 2015 (15:23)

+Björn Fromén Good point! I got somehow distracted here. Old Church Slavonic features the same dative (единосущна Отцу); I guess the basis was the Greek text and the expression was calqued to the rest.

+Tamas Ferencz I'll keep imnassea is mind, but I already used nanwa for verum and do not wish to use the same stem NA for substantia.

Lorenzo C.B. Oct 13, 2018 (20:32)

Why do you translated ταφέντα as noitaina ("mourned" I guess)? Can't the word "bury" to be reconstructed? I see that Master Fauskanger avoided it.

Александр Запрягаев Oct 13, 2018 (21:50)

+Lorenzo C.B. Actually, I have answer: see midgardsmal.com - Notes on Elvish words | Midgardsmal for the theoretical N-D-OY in it.

Lorenzo C.B. Oct 13, 2018 (23:40)

+Александр Запрягаев That clarifies me, thanks. Still I think that verbalization is kinda confusing. I just published your translation on a Spanish web about Tolkien's christianity. Of course, I credit you, but if you don't like it, I can delete it.
tolkiencristiano.wordpress.com - Credo Nicaenum Constantinopolitanum