+Remi Korben +Matt Dinse +Tamas Ferencz I propose to move into a separate discussion, for we have touched a topic I've been considering on my own for a while and planned to post as an independent idea. Indeed, if we do believe that there is a complete paradigm of dative personal pronouns behind the screen, there are multiple mechanisms to yield the attested two, enni and ammen. From this scarce evidence we can surely deduce that this mechanism is a) not lenition (we'd have **aven/anven) and b) not sundóma reduplication (we'd have **inni, emmen). But there are three patterns (well, four…) which may be of consequence:
1) an--prefixation with nasal mutation, which equals a-prefixation with a dynamic lengthening of the first consonant (with a possible i-affection performed later).
2) Compounding: an joins the word as if it were a first stem of a compound.
3) Evolution: an appends to the word at a (possibly, supposed) Old Sindarin stage and evolves as a single word.
The problem is: these methods all give the attested forms, but heavily diverge when reconstructing new. Assuming *te, I listed the final results in a table (I consciously exclude the unsettling le, used in dative function widely, as a borrowed one):
Nom Acc Pref. Comp. Development
ni nin annin annin annin
ci cen achen angen angen
de den annen anden annen
so son asson anhon asson
se sen assen anhen assen
sa san assan anhan assan
te ten athen anden annen
mí men ammen ammen ammen
ci cen achen angen angen
di den annen anden annen
sy syn essyn enhyn essyn
si sin essin enhin essin
sai sain essain enhain essain
ti tin ethin endin ennin
In the known reconstructions, Thorsten Renk obviously prefers the 'prefixation' pattern, though introduces unnecessary reflexive forms and misses te, and +Fiona Jallings, on the contrary, bases her paradigm on 'compounding' structure, though goes even further, undoing the i-affection and making 2nd person familiar pronoun out of an unexpected nominative form.
As you can observe, sometimes all three variant forms are pairwise inconsistent. Personally, I believe that pattern 1 is our best guess, for I'm unaware of any prefixal element (which an obviously is) behaving as a full-fleshed stem and making compounds 2; on the contrary, employing mutations with respective shifts of its own final consonants 1 is a well-attested and normal behaviour. Furthermore, it would be strange to assume these forms as an early development (Q. and T. cognates of Gúren bed enni disprove that, showing the very same early pattern nín, which is different from Sindarin), hence only a tiny possibility of 3. I'd take scheme 1 for our own translations (which I indeed applied for compositions of mine), what do you fellow Lambengolmor think about that?
Remy Corbin Jun 09, 2015 (14:01)
Fiona Jallings Jun 11, 2015 (02:32)
Don't think of it like a normal phrase, with normal grammatical rules. Think of it as a cliche, something repeated so often that it has become worn down into a memorized segment. There are several things that point to this: mutation of "pêd"; vowel shortening of "gúren" to "guren"; and last, I-affection and clipping to "annin".
This isn't the only phrase Tolkien made like this. There's also "Mae govannen." Looking at what he wrote about trying to justify this phrase in this form, he ended up with "mae ci govannen" getting shortened to "mae c'ovannen" which got shortened to "mae govannen". Basically, he was making something akin to "Howdy!" which comes from the old greeting, "How do you do?"
Therefore, I think that "To/for me" is "annin".
Александр Запрягаев Jun 11, 2015 (07:39)
But such constructions cannot explain ammen, popular, widely used, explicitly glossed and translated 'to/for us'. So, datives must exist. Still, I'm unsure about le; what does its usage in only dative contexts mean? Is it *len in accusative with an abnormal dative? Is it fossilized after borrowing and never inflected? Is it the 'simplification' I mentioned above and D. *allen does exist?
And is den in caro den actually a form of de, dhe 'you'?! (I'm imagining things. please restrain me.)
Remy Corbin Jun 11, 2015 (11:30)
Remy Corbin Jun 11, 2015 (11:35)
Александр Запрягаев Jun 11, 2015 (14:05)
Fiona Jallings Jun 11, 2015 (19:41)
First off, I think that there is a difference between transitive and intransitive verbs. With a transitive verb, when there is a dative pronoun, it is without fail marked with "an". "caro ammen" (do for us) "ai gerir úgerth ammen" (who do sins to us) "guren bêd enni" (my heart says to me) "Naur dan i ngaurhoth ammen" (Fire against the wolf-pack for us). (Note that with regular nouns, it looks like "an" can be dropped, as long as the second noun is the dative one, and the verb is di-transitive) But, if it is an intransitive verb, like in "le nallon" (I cry out to you) or "le linnathon" (I will sing to you), "an" can be dropped, and the pronoun will go in the same place that the pronoun-object of the verb would go, as seen in "hain echant" (made those).
We see this -n show up in Sindarin pronouns. I'm not counting possessive pronouns, but I mean "Tiro nin" (watch over me) "ammen" (for/to us) "caro den" (do it) "hain echant" (made those). Comparing Sindarin to Quenya, in Quenya, the -n is dative, but in Sindarin, looking at these examples, it clearly isn't. Instead, I think that this is like the English Oblique case. But, if it is why is there sometimes no -n?
Looking at times that the proposed oblique -n isn't there, there's a commonality. "le nallon" (I cry out to you) or "le linnathon" (I will sing to you). Think of Nasal mutation. If the phrases were originally "len nallon" "len linnation" and "hain echant", nasal mutation would delete the -n on len because "linnation" begins with an L and "nallon" begins with an N, but because "echant" begins with a vowel, the -n on "hain" is left untouched.
There is one exception, "gohenam di ai gerir úgerth ammen" (We forgive they who do sins to us), but I think I know why we'd see a mutated nominative pronoun here. It has a relative clause attached, and in that clause, "they" is the subject. So, it's the nominative pronoun, with mutation on it like it's a regular accusative noun because it heads the phrase that is the direct object.
What makes this explanation elegant is that with it, there are no exceptions to the rule. All of the forms aren't just accounted for, they are generated with this system.
So, for clarification, the system I'm proposing is like this:
Nominative: No additions to the pronoun root.
Oblique: add -n to the end of the pronoun, and use the appropriate mutation.
Dative: prefix "an" to an oblique pronoun.
Possessive: Retaining only the initial consonant, delete the vowel of the pronoun and replace it with "-în".
Fiona Jallings Jun 11, 2015 (20:05)
annin, ammen, *angwen, *angin, *anlen, *anden, *anden, *andin, *anhan, *anhain, *anhen, *anhin, anim, *anech, *anest. (and *anhon, *anhyn if you think that there is gender distinction in Sindarin 3rd person singular pronouns, like Thorsten Renk)
Александр Запрягаев Jun 11, 2015 (20:42)
Fiona Jallings Jun 11, 2015 (21:16)
http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/sindarin.htm#nasal
http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/sindarin.htm#mixed
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_phonetics.htm#mutation
But, the analysis of mutation with "an" was based on data pre-PE17.
PE17/38 "ammen" is broken down into "an+men"
PE17/102 "Aglar 'ni pheriannath" is broken down into "Aglar an|i pheriannath"
PE17/146-7:
"ANA/NÂ [...] S. an, dative chiefly with pronouns or persons. < ana, hence vocalic mutation, but takes form m before m, b.
[...]
AN/NÂ, to, towards. S. an, to, na. an chiefly in forming datives of pronouns, as anim, to myself, ammen to us.
[...]
S an, to (dative). [...] vocal[ic mutation] (ana), dative with place or person."
From this, I get: use vocalic mutation except with voiced stops and nasals. With those, the N of an assimilates the place of articulation from the voiced stop or nasal following it. Also, once the voiceless stop is a voiced stop, it'd take that place of articulation too. Therefore:
an+p=am b
an+b=am b
an+m=am m
an+c=an g
an+g=an g
an+t=an d
an+d=an d
Matt Dinse Jun 11, 2015 (21:23)
That is, en for 1st person, and est, ent, ith, idi/idir for 3rd pl., eth, is for 3rd sg. Apart from idi, none of those seem very accommodating for -n suffixing.
Maybe one of these days we'll see all the Noldorin + Sindarin pronouns and pronominal suffix charts from the 1930s-1960s+ published, and then the situation will be more like Quenya where we're choosing between attested forms, instead of having to reconstruct so much. Though if we're talking priorities, I'd like to see the ET's treatment of the Mágol and Taliska material once it's done, as well as the rest of 1930s Noldorin's historical grammar ... (/offtopic)
Fiona Jallings Jun 11, 2015 (21:41)
Александр Запрягаев Jun 11, 2015 (22:21)
Off topic:
I'd gladly switch Sindarin 'these four variants are wrong, now deduce the right' to Quenya 'one of these four variants is true, but they are contradictory'! One thing that brings me joy every day is that I ventured into Tolkienian linguistics early; I actually plan to be around when final VT and PE are out. In fact, maybe all of us should postpone any pronoun musings till after PE23 is in print, which by all means should include the long-awaited 'Common Eldarin Pronouns, Demonstratives and Correlatives'?..
+Fiona Jallings
On topic:
To discover the pattern, we need two pieces of information: (1) what does Tolkien mean under 'vocalic': lenition, nasal mutation or intervocalic assimilation and (2) which consonants are affecting the final -n. But I don't believe any Sindarin pattern could lead to such an uncouth (equë Tolkien) combination as nl [attested in Sindarin only in a loose-compound minlammad — in any Gnomish/Noldorin/Sindarin stage!] I believe, his words about ana (they are final, for the quotation after that is 'crossed out', per PE17 editors) suggest the scheme:
1. Ana- is prefixed and causes lenition.
2. Middle a is syncopated.
3. If the remaining cluster is counter-Sindarin, it is assimilated, and it is presumably n of the prefix which assimilates.
Thus we get:
annin, angen, allen (nl > ll), andhen (?! — also a never happening combination, could turn annen more probably), anhon/anhen/anhan and finally anden (plus the plurals).
Indeed the old schemes are Noldorin, but Tolkien was unlucky while pulling Noldorin hain into Moria gate inscription; now we have to accomodate it. The gloss is quite suggestive of sa/te distribution following the lines of 'close/far', 'definite/general' and/or 'mentioned before/impersonal'. But the comparison to Quenya leads to another important distinction: -se and -sa can distinguish animate/inanimate — and that returns us to the 'he/hen/hene' of the Etymologies. The real question is: whether in Sindarin maturity there are only he 'he, she' (pun not intended) and ha 'it' (what is the mechanism that always maked all the pronouns lenited even in the nominative, eh?), or ho still does work (more fun this way for a practising translator such as myself, in +Roman Rausch 's translation of Gil-Galad I cannot unread 'about her the minstrels sadly sing', _o hen_…); but the evidence for this S-cluster of 3rd person pronouns is quite suggestive.
Fiona Jallings Jun 12, 2015 (00:01)
2. I'll just quote the passage about nasal mutation in PE17/147:
S na, before vowels nan (nasal mutation), means "with" in sense of possessing, provided with, especially of characteristic feature. Orod na Thôn, Mount of the Pine Tree(s). na 'to' and na 'with' are therefore distinct before vowels and b, d, g, p, t, c, m, s but same before h, f, þ, r (rh), l (lh. Late forms as nan-h as for vowels, archaic nath-r, nath-l for nan-rh, nan-lh. nan|sr > nassr > nathr. nað before r (nan-r >naðr).
This shows what we used to think would be a case of "long nasal mutation" as just regular nasal mutation. Plural "the" in mutates the same way that nan does. Tolkien refers to the mutation used with an as vocalic mutation consistently, through both versions of the 'dative/allative base' entries in PE17. Therefore, the mutation used in an is not nasal mutation. It's "vocalic", but not quite fitting into the traditional vocalic system, but instead, behaving a lot like the preposition en (of the).
Tolkien only mentioned the spelling of an changing before a b or m, not before any other letters. Though, frustratingly, he gives so little to go on it's hard to say "it is THIS way" with any certainty. We'll just have to wait for that mysterious manuscript that demystifies Sindarin pronouns to come forth.
I take for the demonstratives, se-close, si-pl.close, sa-far, sai-pl.far. (edro hi ammen and sí nef aear and i thîw hin and im Narvi hain echant) and the ten and ti from Ae Adar Nín as 3rd person pronouns. (note that with all of these, the plural version is a typical Sindarin plural of the singular version) Sindarin and Quenya can have related pronouns without them being the same. I think this is a case of Tolkien re-purposing an old word into something new.
Александр Запрягаев Jun 12, 2015 (10:48)
The same with an- ones: Tolkien never elaborated his mutations to include all the possible initial consonants. He skipped the rare (but trickiest, as it later turns) rh, lh, h, hw quite often (cf. his description of S-assimilation after ah and the original gloss of stop mutation where he only states such form's existence!), and I do not really feel it a violation of Tolkien's word when I extrapolate beyond glossed nm-sitiuation (remember, Tolkien needed it for annin and ammen only!). If he actually tried to employ his neatly described ana-rule to the actual pronouns, he'd stumble into the most violent nl and a much worse ndh which we have no idea how to deal with for it never appears in a native word; there is NO mechanism leading to this cluster beyond the employed here: a compounding or prefixation of something ending with a vowel with its later syncopation! A stop to anden may be expected after Salo's rule 4.117 of un-lenition on morpheme boundary after n, but annen, adhen, even athen are not something to be surprised of!
Fiona Jallings Jun 12, 2015 (20:05)
Mostly we disagree on the topic of how the mutation would work with an, and I see no reason to look for masculine and feminine pronouns to fill that gap, because I don't perceive it as a gap.
Your reduplication idea may be something that happened to the reflexive pronouns, est and ech. It's something worth looking into.
Александр Запрягаев Jun 12, 2015 (22:14)
Angwen? Why not ana-gwen > ana-wen > *anwen, to follow Tolkien's words exactly? We have lots of nw in words… Though isn't is rather angwen > amben > ammen clashing with the known one? I believed initial and intervocalic ñw turn into ñwgw > mb in Sindarin, if not all Lindarin tongues. (Though in fact we know exactly from Carl Hostetter that these pronominal complications are somehow resolved in Tolkien's writings, and resolved to Quenya's degree of overabundance…)
Fiona Jallings Jun 13, 2015 (04:28)
Anwen is actually equally acceptable to me as angwen, but ammen as a 1st person inclusive... I don't think that the compound is old enough for the ngw>mm to have happened.
Александр Запрягаев Jun 13, 2015 (14:48)
I guess this is unfortunately the way Sindarin study normally works: each and every one of us has one's own personal comfortable headcanon, but when we start showing our ideas to each other we cannot understand half of the tricks we use! Especially in such minor yet important language zones: athar or athan? (I'm all for the first: the only reasoning for athan in mature Sindarin is comparison to late Quenya han of similar meaning — but what is the prefix? Ad/at- 'two'? No meaning! Ath-? The re-derivation of athrad in PE17 as a gerund banished ath stem in favour of thar 'across' < A-THAR! In fact, I'm not doubting the possibility of actual Noldorin athan in SD; only even if it existed, said re-derivation refurbishes into into athar < athār from sundóma reduplication or maybe the 'exactifying' a-prefixation/dynamic lengthening a-ttar, which this time coincide!) I wonder if anyone here has his own ideas to say 'he went'! Event? (Thorsten's) Evenn? (Yours) Evín? (David's) I believe that an analogical past tense 'I drank' is Ŷngin ( ûnc < augm. u-hunc [cf. Etym. Nold.sunc,also auv < a-havw] + in); does anybody agree here at all?
More to the original point: I decided to search the newer materials for any pronoun discussion. I found in PE21:75: "_Thus in unemphatic pronouns (which are archaic in form and largely escaped the later inflexional elaborations), where two such occurred in a sentence, the one nearer to the verb (or most closely agglutinated to it) was taken as the direct or nearer object; the second was in function usually what we should describe as 'dative'. There was in Eldarin no distinction felt or marked between "I taught K. music" and "I gave K. a gift." In such cases in Eldarin, and some of the derived tongues, it remained possible to express both by uninflected forms." Well, in Quenya these cases are explicitly different: by accusative with null and by dative with _-n — then which are 'derived tongues' if not Lindarin branch? A proof it can be, I guess, for a universal 'objective'/oblique form in S. with only a couple fossilized dative elements (annin(?), ammen, enni and the reflexives which are obviously late and different from the rest)!
Fiona Jallings Jun 14, 2015 (21:22)
Александр Запрягаев Jun 14, 2015 (21:24)
Fiona Jallings Jun 14, 2015 (22:45)